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 Post subject: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:44 pm 
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Touchy subject perhaps but for someone to come out and claim that Jesus was invented by the Romans and will present the proof is a bit bold.

I'm sure he will find some that agree with him (Joseph Atwill, a Biblical Scholar) as there are a lot of Atheist around these days. For one thing however, I do accept that it is possible to regress someone through hypnosis as there have been many reputable professionals that have documented such cases and are very hard to refute. Of the many cases I have read on the subject, there was one that was of interest to me because that person lived at the community known as Essene. Of the descriptions that were presented of the community were not known at the time and were later proved to be true and had existed. This person not only knew of Jesus but had been one that was supposed to have helped him remember who he was as it was in their prophecy that he would come. There is a whole book on the regression and has been checked out. That's just one case.

If anyone was made up, it was the devil. Lucifer is usually the one connected with that name however. Lucifer did exist but was not the devil, that was made up for reasons I'd rather not go into here. Should be interesting to see the reaction of the religious community when this guy comes out with the so called proof. We are all entitled to believe what we will however but in the long run the only thing that really matters is how you treat others as to what happens beyond this life. Whether or not Jesus was here as a real person does not belittle that which he is credited as teaching the human race and it's not a bad way to live your life I'd say. Anyway, it's my choice to believe a man existed that was a messenger of God or a higher consciousness that knew the truth and chose to give his life to pass that truth on. There are many today doing just that. I suppose they don't exist either?

Just my two cents worth. Thank you and peace be with you.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:38 am 
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Through roman sources we can be quite sure that Jesus existed, but i would not agree that that Jesus was invented by the Romans.

Besides that, we do not know much about what Jesus said, teached or even has done. Our sources are all years or even decades after his death and the composition of the bible has been defined in the 4th Century by a church council.

There are written accounts which might be closer to the time of Jesus but the Catholic church did not accept that to be part of the bible. And one thing is quite sure: after the "Constantin turn" the church was something quite different than before.

My opinion on this: i went to a catholic school in Austria for 10 years so i know a bit about the rituals there, but only after i have read Platos Dialogues i realized what Jesus might actual have been: a transitional figure, who translated asian influences (e.g. buddhist thinking), transported by greek philosphers, into his world and formed kind of an alternative religion to the jewish world where he was borught up.

Meanwhile i am quite sceptical towards all religions, but must also confess that i try to live a basic buddhist thinking: try to help all beings around you, and if you cant help at least try to avoid to cause any pain and suffering.

Just my two cents

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"There is a great advantage in training under unfavorable conditions. It is better to train under bad conditions, for the difference is then a tremendous relief in a race."
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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:33 am 
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Another pennies worth: According to the History of God, there were three messengers of note. Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad. There of course are many others that have also contributed but the main one's we are aware of are those three. That's not to say once man puts in print what was said it doesn't get changed or interpreted differently.

Right though, that the writings appeared over a hundred years beyond the crucifixion. I have a book that was based on very old literature called "The Day Jesus Became God". It is the history of the writing of the Bible. How Constantine used the church to help control the various occupations the Romans were involved with. The main theme of the book however is how the Church's edited out half of the known writing because they could not agree on it so it was just eliminated. The Qumran caves later revealed much of what they left out but is in dispute.

It all doesn't matter however because all one has to do is go within to find the truth and the answers. It's all there and not necessary to have any religion to interpret it for us or act as a mediator. It's supposed to be one on one anyway. The so called ten commandments were not actually commandments but a guide as to how to avoid Karma (misused energy that has consequences.) It's all so simple yet they make it complex and it's more about control than anything else.

Okay, maybe a bit more than a pennies worth, ha ha. Anyway, nice to see someone added to the discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 4:41 am 
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some more cents :-)

I think the Buddha story is a little different than Jesus and Mohammed, as in all buddhist schools i am aware of, there is no single all-powerful god, who stands above everything and everyone else. But there are forms of Buddhisms, like Tibetian Budhhism, in which you have spiritual power also translated to world-power as the Dalai Lama is not only the spiritual leader, but also the man who has the political power (or had, as the current Dalai Lama reformed the absolutistic government).

And this brings me back to the single-god religions like Christianity or Islam where political power is also in play. It is likely that neither Jesus nor Muhammad wanted to have that kind of political power, their spiritual followers have.

But here is the source of my scepticism: human societies build their own realities, and construct their social systems. So i am not sure if religion is misused for political power, or has not been invented for exactly that purpose, like Money was invented for a clear purpose. A clear evidence for the later one, lets say in Europe, is the idea of a Monarch, who derives his power by a God only, granted by the only representative of that God on earth (=Pope).

In that sense i can only agree that the "ten commandments" might be orginally just guidelines to avoid bad karma, but was then used by people as a form of disciplinary control over a society.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:50 am 
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I don't ascribe to any particular form of religion for the most part but overall, whether a single God or Entity or Creator is involved or not, the point of religion from my perspective is that there is some kind of order to things. And, the key in all cases is to find the truth within not without. Humans are accustomed to being taught from without and can usually not conceive that there could be any answers within because it is not something we associate with the physical realm. And that's because they do not realize we are actually spirit having a human experience. I do agree that most all religions today do use control. What's blaring obvious is if each religion claims to be the way then what does that make the rest of them? There is no right or wrong, only consequences.

The philosopher Spinoza advocated that it could be proven that there has to be a superior consciousness that created the order of things. Even Einstein professed that science proves that there is an intelligence at work here. Everything is or comes from energy be it dynamic or as potential. Given the time Humans have been on earth compared to the rest of the Universe we know practically nothing. Compare each hundred year interval and see just how much new information has either been gained or lost . In my life time I have seen science change it's tune many times and each time they were sure they knew for sure it was right. So it amazes me that anyone can be so sure they are right about anything. I do believe this Universe is a Hologram of sorts and is constantly changing depending on what we expect of it. In other words, we are influencing it and to be able to do that, this is no random reality and does indicate that there is malleable energy that has to work on a set of laws or rules to which something had to set up in the first place.

For a good read if one is willing to stretch their mind a little, actually maybe a lot, there is a book worth getting called "The History Of God" which has nothing to do with religion as could appear to indicate but rather how the Universes are set up and all that we do not see which is out of our range of perception at present while in the physical realm. Everything is based on frequency of sorts just like our senses and we only perceive a very small fraction of what is really there, just enough to get around in the physical.

There is so much evidence of things we do not understand or see that exist that to claim we know what is and what isn't is actually arrogant. Just recently the big bang theory is put on hold because now they think the Universe is actually speeding up. Surprise, the universe is in a sphere but it may be awhile before they learn that. The higher the frequency (evolution) the faster things are. There are those that claim the Schumann resonance is speeding up which would indicate the planet's vibration is now faster and that is perfectly in accord with what's happening.

One thing I have learned over the years is that the theory of everything has to include everything and not ignored like some elephant or rhino in a room that no one wants to talk about which happens all the time and yet they claim to understand it all, baloney is what I say. I could write a book on anomalies that actually would be almost never ending. That's because they are happening as we evolve and won't become atrophied. It's our purpose to evolve as is everything and it is obvious which makes it an Oxymoron to to think we are slowing down and becoming atrophied. And to think this just happened by some random event in an ordered Universe (there is even order in chaos) that it is by it's nature not possible to not have some consciousness behind it all. (at least to me) But in my case I have seen things and done things that I feel have proven to me beyond a doubt that this is so. I am scientific but like Einstein I too see there is more than most are willing to admit. My choice of course.

I guess this is more like a nickles worth? Sorry, get carried away as I'm passionate about this subject since I've spent so much time exploring it. Don't even get me started on Cancer because I know there are so many cures for it that it's a crime what they are doing keeping them from the public. But then maybe they think there is too much population??? Or it's such a good money maker to keep it going? Oh well, like I said, I better not get started on this. I speak from experience just so you know.

May you have a prosperous day.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:25 am 
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My outlook on religion is that it inspires faith in those who cannot find a source of faith on their own. It seems like we as humans need something to believe in.
For many, science is the end-all answer, and that is understandable. But science seems like a bad basis for all of faith if you ask me. It is all too common that what we currently believe to know changes, and that can uproot a person, even if they seem to be handling the change well. I think many of our problems now are born from the absence of something to believe in, something to keep us going. As long as you keep your own "religion" within yourself, whether your god be yourself, science, capital G-God or the flying spaghetti monster, I think we will be okay as a species.

I have to say, if I associated myself with any organized religion(s), it would be the Abrahamic ones (primarily Christianity); but im not so stubborn to say that evolution is a lie, and Ronald Reagan is the devil. There is too much pointing to the contrary, and beyond that, what does it matter if we descended from proto-apes? It doesn't change anything in the current (except that the abrahamic god might have a bit of extra hair). And honestly, I get the feeling that all of us are doing it wrong. How else could Christians, Muslims, and Jews have such similar and different views on the same concept? Because as humans, we suck at communicating honestly with one another.


Beyond that, here is an interesting theory. I do not know if I could be even remotely accurate, and I doubt im the first to think this up, but what if the density of the universe is shifting from its core to its extremities? If that were true, then it would support the renewing universe theory, where everything presses outwards, before springing back and compressing itself back down and repeating the big bang. Beyond that, with the source of overall mass shifting to the outside, it would also help expain universal acceleration, by shifting the source of gravity to the outsides, further increasing the pull towards the edges.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:17 am 
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Hi Vena, thanks for the comment. Always good to see someone reflect on things unknown and question. Philosophy is just such a thing, reflection and comment on observations, theories, and attempt at answering questions. Something I have noticed through all of these years is the need for a moral compass. I get so disheartened with all of the things humans do to other humans, how they treat others without any conscience of the hurt they do and how they make a career out of making others suffer or stealing from them.

The sad part is that from what I know, they surely will suffer themselves eventually but in the meantime they effect us all. We live in a polarized universe, meaning for everything there is an opposite. Everything is energy but when it is misused it becomes attached to us as dysfunctional energy, baggage so to speak. It will slow a person's vibrational energy down and if that continues the get deeper into lower frequencies which in turn is like a spiral in hard times and bad luck if you will. But it also effects those around them and if one stays in their sphere long enough they too have it rub off on them and slow down their vibrational rate.

If you are sensitive enough, and walk into a room, you can feel the vibrations (vibs) in that room and it can be harmonious or disharmonious. If so, get out of there or else raise your own vibs enough to effect them. If that don't work, get out. It's physics or actually metaphysics for most. Metaphysics is physics that is not well known to most people but never the less is physics that works on a level that is not familiar to everyone.

Being a polarized universe means that we can change things by raising out vibrations to influence things around us. This in turn can have very positive effects for not just us but for all of us. It's like a crowd of people that can get out of control by being influenced by as little as one person that starts it off and soon turns into a hanging crowd but can also work in reverse as well. I guess that is like turning the other cheek if someone does us an injustice. This I have seen work in personal experience.

When I was working (now retired) one of the managers came back to me and started in yelling at me because he had promised a client he'd have results for him at a certain time. When that didn't happen he came to me and started his belittling me as I was the source of his embarrassment for not being able to deliver what he promised. Usually, as in the past, I'd refute his anger and it would spiral out of control and both of us would be pissed. But this time for some reason I just took it and when he was done I just calmly said, sorry, I just received the material to test a few minutes ago. That took him by surprise as he never thought to ask me when I got it. Later on however, he had a chance to think about it all and realized he acted very unprofessionally, lost control, and blamed someone else for his not following it through if it was so important to him. So he came back to me and apologized and asked for forgiveness as he knew he was in the wrong. I just chuckled knowing that I did the unexpected and just took it calmly which defused the whole situation. So, did I turn the other cheek? I think so and it had positive results.

So I think if all of us just made an attempt to raise our vibrations it would influence others and eventually tilt the polarity into a more positive aspect. I also think that having a moral compass is essential to instill in our youth and things like fairness, sharing, tolerance, etc, will have long lasting traits that will help them get through life with a lots less baggage.

Religion does not always instill these traits into people however which is why I don't ascribe to any one church. For one, I'm sorry but I can not believe that God intended anyone to kill another in his name. In fact, my understanding is that it is far superior to be killed than to kill but I'm not sure I would just stand by and allow that to happen. ha ha. But I understand the point. One involves Karma, the other does not. I believe in self defense as a middle way so to speak. Although there will still be consequences involved.

As far as how exactly the universe is regarding expanding and such, The Secret Doctrine by Madam Blavatsky tells of an impervious palm type leaf written in Sanskrit is the story of the birth of the universe where the source breathed out which creates the universe expanding out and then breaths in which collapses it and this may take trillions of years for one breath. So as long as we are in the human form and living in a physical universe, I doubt that we will ever learn the whole truth as to how it all began other than what I have come to understand is an experiment for the source to have created the universes for it help itself learn exactly what it is which is why it was necessary to create all of the possibilities of life to help in leaning it. Of course everything happened out of time so for all purposes it all happened at once but since we live in linear time, we live from one moment to the next in order to experience it. So to use it would seem like billions and billions of years.

When you get into the quantum universe, it can get pretty far out there in trying to comprehend it all. It's not something that can be absorbed all at once and may take a very long time but that what I believe we are supposed to do. However long it takes we are to learn it all and eventually be able to create things ourselves. Like galaxies, universes, whatever. In effect, be as God as we are all part of God and therefore capable to achieving that eventually. But then that is what I believe and it may be different for each of us. To each their own beliefs. Peace to all.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:52 am 
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Thanks Utlo for the book tip (History of God), i already ordered it!

Because of our posting here i took some time in a quiet moment to think about what role God (this time the christian one) played during my early life when i was at that catholic school. I do remember that despite the fact that Jesus plays a much larger role in the "vibrations" of that school i actually always prayed to god and asked him for help. But during the last years of school i tended to question the concept i learned, because it was a kind of bargaining: i promised something to god and in exchange he should give me some kind of help. And one point this seems strange because we were also told that God loves and helps unconditionally.

So actually i think the concept of a "God above all things" was the main cause for me to question the whole christian religion up to this day. I dont think there is a God necessary to explain the existence of the universe. There will be no scientific way to prove the existence of a god, so it i think it will always remain a personal matter to believe in one or not.

I completely agree about the "morale compass" you mentioned, but i tend to avoid the concept of Morale as much as i can. In this respect i had an interesting discussion over beer with a friend of mine, who is a buddhist, last night: we talked about eating meat and why avoinding eating meat. Of course one can bring in moral arguments (because it means killing animals to eat them, and the industrial way of keeping animals is most likely also painful for them), but out of his buddhist tradition he brought a different argument, which i think is related to the "vibrations" you mentioned: its a matter of the consequences of causing pain: causing pain will in turn result in experience pain yourself (and also others). Not at once but just like you throw a stone into a water and see how the waves start to move outwards. Every action as a consequence and influences your karma in a "good" or "bad" way.
This is a very clumsy explanation of the concept of "Karma" and i try to act more accordingly in respect to Karma than to the moral directions i was brought up with.

Reagrding the Universe i remember a theory that we are just part of an organism, like there are organism in our Intestine...might also be possible i guess!

_________________
"There is a great advantage in training under unfavorable conditions. It is better to train under bad conditions, for the difference is then a tremendous relief in a race."
Emil Zatopek


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:38 am 
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JBuford wrote:
Thanks Utlo for the book tip (History of God), i already ordered it!

Because of our posting here i took some time in a quiet moment to think about what role God (this time the christian one) played during my early life when i was at that catholic school. I do remember that despite the fact that Jesus plays a much larger role in the "vibrations" of that school i actually always prayed to god and asked him for help. But during the last years of school i tended to question the concept i learned, because it was a kind of bargaining: i promised something to god and in exchange he should give me some kind of help. And one point this seems strange because we were also told that God loves and helps unconditionally.

So actually i think the concept of a "God above all things" was the main cause for me to question the whole christian religion up to this day. I dont think there is a God necessary to explain the existence of the universe. There will be no scientific way to prove the existence of a god, so it i think it will always remain a personal matter to believe in one or not.

I completely agree about the "morale compass" you mentioned, but i tend to avoid the concept of Morale as much as i can. In this respect i had an interesting discussion over beer with a friend of mine, who is a buddhist, last night: we talked about eating meat and why avoinding eating meat. Of course one can bring in moral arguments (because it means killing animals to eat them, and the industrial way of keeping animals is most likely also painful for them), but out of his buddhist tradition he brought a different argument, which i think is related to the "vibrations" you mentioned: its a matter of the consequences of causing pain: causing pain will in turn result in experience pain yourself (and also others). Not at once but just like you throw a stone into a water and see how the waves start to move outwards. Every action as a consequence and influences your karma in a "good" or "bad" way.
This is a very clumsy explanation of the concept of "Karma" and i try to act more accordingly in respect to Karma than to the moral directions i was brought up with.

Reagrding the Universe i remember a theory that we are just part of an organism, like there are organism in our Intestine...might also be possible i guess!


When it comes to God, I just prefer to believe, gives me something to look forward to when life ends. After all, how unappealing is the idea of just dying? Thats just it, you are gone. Its just hard, (no matter how I think about it) to imagine the lights being flicked off. After all, to imagine it, the lights must be on.
Its hard to believe in Heaven, Hell, and the Divine as well. There is nothing Tangible about them, and they have never been proven to us; but we are creatures who think in opposites. If there is good, there must be evil; we can't comprehend one without something to compare it to. It is a stupid system though, isn't it? To understand one we must compare it to the other; but to compare them, we must understand the under, don't we? So does that mean that we were gifted knowledge? Or maybe we were just wrong from the start.

But beyond that all of the Abrahamic religions go about the concept of God the wrong way. I don't know the right way, but if God's concern is our "soul" (Another intangible concept), why would he make any attempts to help us in life? Ask to be helped or saved, and it seems like something that would come after you have passed. After all, salvation isn't for life, but for the afterlife.
To quote Odd Thomas, "Life is Boot Camp, and the next is 'Service'."

Karma is a hard idea. On one hand, it seems to be true, but on the other hand, bad things happen to good people, and good things happen to bad people. Maybe karma is just our way of remembering our misdeeds? It seems like, no matter how far we fall to one side of the moral compass, most of us can understand that we wouldn't want ____ to happen to us.
A way to balance the equation, so to speak. We attribute one event to another to make sense of them; and I don't think its something learned. Creating order is an innate property of human being, look at dreams. Our brains can't stand randomness, so it gives meaning to the images flashing through our mind.

Oh, and if the universe is an organism, that explains all the crap!


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:28 am 
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Hello JBuford, in regard to eating meat; some people need to eat it for protein but that's because their body is used to it. I was never a vegetarian but I have cut down a lot on eating meat and usually stick to fish, and foul with very little other animal. Reason is, I'm adjusting my frequency. Meat as well as some other food items tend to lower the body frequency, usually the more dense it is the denser the body becomes, hence a lower frequency.

That's not to say people should not eat meat as it is their choice. That's where free will comes in, and same holds true for doing good or evil, those are concepts made by man but as I said before, it's the consequences that result from our free will choices.

Vena, the idea of good and evil are just choices that we make as to how to live, the key word here is evil, what is considered evil? An example might be that we consider it evil for some alien to come along and abduct us and experiment on us but to them perhaps it is no different than when we collect animals and take them to a laboratory to use in drug experiments supposedly to help mankind. Although I don't think that is a good thing because I have my issues with drugs anyway, why do they take a plant extract, synthesize it so they can get a patent on it and charge a lot of money for it? Why not use the drug from the plant direct the way nature made it as there is a cure for every disease or ailment on the planet since the body is made from the planet. (not counting the incarnation of the spirit here.)

These are hard concepts to explain but the book I mentioned does cover lots of it. For instance, what I had just said above, the body may be made from the planet but for it to have the consciousness necessary to question itself, it has to have a spirit. And that is only part of it because even a virus has a consciousness and can exhibit intelligence of a sort, such as disguising itself to survive. Cancer viruses are good at that. (Viruses and bacteria are defined by their size relative to passing a screen size from what I have read.) That's another whole subject which could take a lot of discussion. Like a cancer virus can take on different properties in order to survive on the medium it attacks. From what I have learned is that there is only one cancer but it can mutate into many different forms but it's base frequency identification is the same. I suppose I could get into trouble discussing this so I won't as I'm not a doctor.

As to the lights just going out, doesn't happen unless you want them to. Energy just changes form does not get lost. When we leave here it is in the form of energy and the consciousness goes with it. It is one and the same actually. And again, this is just a simple explanation because there is a lot more involved. But I have no doubt about it and know I will continue on forever as we all will, none of us are ever lost as we (the spirit) is part of the source and therefore can not be extinguished. We have been given life that is everlasting even though it may sound religious, it is what it is, call it by whatever name you like. Science is a form of religion as well, and people have a very bad habit of getting caught up in semantics. That is why it takes years to understand these concepts, one has to drop away all of the preconceived notions that we have been programmed with.

Well, don't want to be preaching here but glad to have a discussion on the subjects as they present themselves and I only know what applies to me and works for me but if it happens to work for others as well, then that's a plus. It's taken me 45 years of searching for answers to get where I'm at and I'm very comfortable with what I have found out so far. In fact, it's pure joy to me to know what I do because no matter what happens here on earth this is only a visitation here and I have lots of other things to be learning and experiencing. The bottom line is, it doesn't matter really because no matter what, everyone will eventually find out the truth. When they do, they will either know they are home again or kick their self for wasting opportunity and a chance to have resolved karma and or advanced to a higher frequency. It's a very long way back to the Origin. Love is energy! Peace to all.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:23 pm 
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I am just glad to see a discussion if religion where the two sides aren't trying to tear one another's throats out.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:45 pm 
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I think those are uncivilized trolls that do that, ha ha.

On another note, I heard that we'd have about a year of crazies where people are shooting their children or like you hear in those school shootings, it's called moon madness only it last a lot longer. It's also possible that many of the original level headed founders are back on the planet and will lead us out of this insanity once they get into a position to do it. Many of the children being born now are "old souls" that have already learned enough to advance but chose to come back and help us all in these trying days. The source of this is fairly reliable as I have watched over the years to determine if they really are and they pass the test to my satisfaction at least. Many of the things we are presently seeing was told several years ago and it has come to pass so why wouldn't the rest happen?

The subject of this post however was about a religious authority claiming Rome made up Jesus but then there are several people out there in authority that claim the holocaust never happened. Funny thing though is the idea that Rome would do this because it is not typical of what their beliefs were at the time. They had the ancient gods that they were quite happy with and it is not likely they would have invented someone that advocated that the Roman rule was a bad thing. Such as slavery, killing, wild ***, etc. It's like the historian that claims there was no ice age. Geology proves otherwise.

I think that Jesus was a messenger that chose to come here to put humankind back on track and here we are again getting off track. There are present day messengers but this time they are very careful to avoid the pitfall of being worshiped so they have chosen to send many instead of one. That I think is smart because everyone has their own way of accepting things so the more the merrier as long as the message is the same and I have seen that is the case.

You can usually tell if it's just someone trying to fleece people or actually sharing enlightenment be it what has worked for them or that they were directed to share it by a higher power. Many good websites have free information without charge or collecting names and email addresses and such, it's there if you want it without obligation. Those that request money and tell you nothing unless you join and pay are not the ones you want to go to. A good site for general knowledge of historical sites, myths, ancient civilizations, and so much more free to the reading is Crystalinks.com, (I have no affiliation with any of these sites.) For free mp3 or just listen type, Kryon.com is excellent as he has been covering the on going changes these past years and tells you what to expect and how humans are changing in their DNA. It's channeled information but consider that he has been invited back to the UN several times and travels the world to enlighten. You can download the mp3 files with without any cost or revealing who you are as he speaks in most major cites in the USA and other countries. Russia, Australia, South America, and many more. I deem these very reputable or I wouldn't list them here.

Have a great Halloween although some claim it is pagan, ha ha. Don't take life too serious as God does have a great sense of humor. And the one thing he/she wants for us is to be happy. Afterall, God is in us all as no life form exist that is not of God. And if you do not believe in a God, then at least believe in life and celebrate that.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:42 pm 
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Oh boy do I have a lot to say about all of this. :P

First of all: I'm most of all a scientist. That means I accept what can be proven.
Yes, most of those proofs are "just" scientific theories, but that's the beauty of science: always selfimproving. :D
So, if people can prove that god(s) exist: cool, I'm all for it. And would be interesting.
If, however, it's proven they don't exist, I'd prefer if people would stop talking about them. Unless referred to as sci-fi/fantasy. :P

However, if god(s) do exist, I honestly don't believe they're nice people. Nor that they're omnipotent.
A nice little quote I like, attributed to the Greek philosopher Epicurus:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?"
Though it's not 100% that he was the one who said it.

Anyhoo, the Buddhist gods are, funnily enough, what I'd most associate with gods (if they exist).
Just very very powerful beings.
And in Buddhism, at least from what I can remember, they're really just people who have gained so much good karma, that they reincarnated as a god. Which funnily enough according to Buddhism means they are at the top of the Karma wheel so to speak, and it can only go downhill from there on. They were so good in their last live, that it can only go downhill from now on. Meaning when you're a god, you can't really do any better, just screw up (intentionally or not), and get reincarnated as something lower later on. :)

Anyhoo, back to Jesus. From what I can recall from what I've read, the Romans kept records of who they crucified, and yes, they crucified someone named Jesus, meaning at least someone by that name existed. Everything else about him and the bible is in my opinion either bollocks or just irrelevant.
If you need an imaginary hell you might end up in to be a good person, if you need a "holy" scripture to be good, well, honestly you have larger issues. Like a lack of empathy.
Something as simple as caring about others should come naturally, not be forced by books or any potential "evil" that might happen.

In regards to evil and good: I totally agree that they're human constructs! :D
Just like good and bad. It doesn't really exist. What exist is actions and consequences (or reactions)
Call it frequencies if you want to. Or harmonics. Or karma. Or whatever. It's really the same thing. An action have reaction.
The reaction might be nothing, but that in itself is an action.

How about death?
Doesn't really matter. I was dead billions of years before this life. Didn't affect me before. The next death won't do much either.
What will happen? Who knows, but we'll all find out, in some way or another.

How about the universe?
Now this is a tricky one, mostly because it's based on theoretical physics/math, and observations. :D
There's diverse guesses, but that's really it.
Was there a big bang? Perhaps. Best model there is atm.
Is it all a hologram/in our minds/etc? Bugger if I know. :D
But interesting to ponder about.
What will be the fate? Will it all expand into nothingness? Will it all collapse? Will the sky suddenly rip open and a face look down and go "Darn, look at this mess!" and throw it out?
No idea.

Do I believe there's more than what we can see/measure?
Jep. Seen/felt too much not to.
But there's no real proof of anything. No real theories to back it up.
And that's a shame.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 1:53 am 
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Hi exit, nice to see your have a response. Yes, I was/am a scientist also, my stock in trade for many years. Way too many things have happened during that time however that have given cause to just sit back and ponder if something is real or not so I attempted to find out one way or the other.

The problem with it however is that it's a personal quest, not something you can convince anyone unless they too take the journey but even then they may not find anything they would call proof. But that's the beauty of it all, and why it is a personal quest. We are born into a world knowing basically nothing, not like animals that have instinct about many things. If someone says something is hot, we as humans still want to prove it to ourselves that it really is and will likely touch it just like a wet paint sign. We learn strictly by experience. And not all people will experience the same things.

Many things that we actually do not experience experimentally is arrived at by deduction. If I see many people being burnt by touching something that is hot, I'm not going to touch it myself as I can deduce that it must really be hot since I see many people reacting to it and having visual signs of a burn on them. Many things in life can be deduced that way by observation. How many people do you know that don't bother to observe anything or learn from it? It is a learned skill to learn how to deduce things by observation or from reports from many reputable people.

So, one has to ask themselves, just because one has not experienced something first hand should they doubt it completely or keep an open mind? And of the reports, what kind of people are they that make the claims that they have seen something or experienced something? If one goes through life doubting everything that they did not experience personally, that is their choice but then they limit their belief system or wind up narrow minded. I have many times said in this forum that to expand ones understanding of reality, they must allow for more things in their world because only then will they actually encounter it. We filter out so much that by not allowing for it, it will remain invisible and therefore only revealed to those that open their mind.

It's the reverse of what we have been taught. We are taught to only believe what we can prove to exist, well that is limiting because some things are not too easy to prove. As history has shown however, many things that were denied for a long time eventually someone comes out with proof of it and they are hailed as brilliant scientist, or whatever profession they are in.

But it is ones own personal choice to either wait until something is proven (but again, what is exactly proof?), or blaze the frontiers and explore for themselves. Which, I have to add here that when we are born into this reality, we evolve mentally through our life by either experience or through learning from others what they have experienced and it's a choice if they believe it or not. It's by design that it is that way because what would be the point of coming here to this reality if we already knew everything? Why bother because we'd already have our own ideas of what is here and not learn anything new because of it. To truly learn both sides of an argument, one must experience both sides of it and that requires that we have a clean slate of a mind beforehand.

I have zero doubt about what I have learned regarding the spirit life after this one. If anyone thinks I'm nuts for that, it's not really my problem but theirs. It's their choice what they believe and I have no problem with that for how else will they learn unless they find out for themselves? My advice to anyone that is curious and would like to know just what is, to take the journey and attempt to prove or disprove it for themselves and not take anyone's truth about it. Use logic, deduction, and above all experience and keep an open mind that things are not always as they appear. We are just now beginning to be exposed to quantum mechanics where things are certainly not as they appear to be but yet are like the proverbial elephant in the room where no one wants to discuss it. It's there folks, ignore all you want but it's there! It just takes the will to open your mind to it and experience it first hand. You have always heard that to find the unknown look within. Why? Because that is where the truth is. I contend we are energy that has come from some larger source and energy that has consciousness. Can anyone really explain what consciousness is and yet we claim to be so damn smart? Think about it.

So it's actually good to keep an open mind, explore concepts that may sound foreign or unreasonable, and just think, how many people have discovered a new energy source that gets bought up by the oil companies that we never see and are told they can't exist? Prove them for yourself because I have and they do work so what does that make me, a madman because I believe something that we are told can't exist?

Let me tell you a short story, back when I had a software company in California, we fired a person that had helped create some high tech that is used in hospitals today. He was a physicist. Actually he made more than me but we needed someone with his expertise. We had many talks and at times I made statements that he found conflicted with his understanding of science. He would ask many questions trying to prove I was way off base. What finally happened however is he began to doubt his own learning and from trying to prove I was wrong found that it started to become a threat to his spending all of those years thinking he knew what he thought was they way things are. He admitted that I was starting to make too much sense! Really? Too much sense? Needless to say, we had to part ways because it became an obsession to him and became conflicted to the point he was becoming violent about it. He could not handle that he spent his life being sure of things only to now be presented with another side of things he had not bothered to examine. And of course was already programmed with what he was told how things are and how they are not. That's why many inventions are discovered by people that have little education formally. They are not told something won't work. The point being, don't be too sure that something does or does not exist as it is much better to be open minded about some things as you will find that if you are observant, you will begin to hear and see things for yourself that will either reinforce or disprove some idea. I could spend hours telling you about things that have been discovered that have been suppressed in the name of monopoly or have been taken off the market because it was an inexpensive way to treat yourself of some illness that the drug companies had a synthetic patented product instead.

I hope everyone takes what I have said here as my own personal opinion and not feel that I am upset with any response as I have said previous, discussion is a good thing between open minded individuals and no one is chided for believing as they choose. We all will learn what we will in our own time and no one should be judged otherwise. I think most people here in this forum is open minded and good hearted. Think conservation of energy, it can't be destroyed, only changes form. We are a conscious energy. Peace be with you all.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:30 am 
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Hello Xit and Utlo!

Xit, your description of gods in buddhism is quite the same i remember reading. But regarding death i tend to see it the other way: because if i consider i have been died millions of years ago, why do i live again? When death is not an end, then why is life considered a beginning? So my approach is rather this: what is really the difference between live and death as they seem to point towards each other. Of course, this is my personal approach!

Utlo the story of your company is a very interesting one! I think you made a very good point on the resistance of people to throw out their knowledge due to new experiences. You actually gave me a hint on explaining some recent political developments in Austria as we had general elections last month - but that is a different topic...

Back on the original topic: i tried to read a little bit on the sources outside the church on the existence of Jesus and they are really quite thin. But it seems most of the involved historians conculde that the evidences for the existence of Jesus are strong enough to conclude, that he did exist.

Another way of dealing with that would be the question why should the Romans invent Jesus? From roman sources the early christians were seen as toublemaker who need to be get rid off. But as the movement was out off control they jumped on the train as they have seen some advantages in doing so (e.g. staying in power in some critical provinces).

What might also be possible is that the Roman at the beginning did support the historical Jesus as he was considered an antagonist to the established religious jewish community, which tended to question the sovereignty of roman rule. In the end they might have dropped Jesus as it (or he) seems to get out of control.

But this is just a speculation. Unless some new roman sources turn up, we will never know...

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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:55 am 
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here is an article on the subject: http://news.discovery.com/history/relig ... 131011.htm

But I don't put much stock in it as there are plenty of people that do not agree with history as it is. There are those that do not believe there was a holocaust but there was more than enough evidence when US soldiers arrived there. Then there were the Nuremberg trials.
I have also read a book where it was claimed that there was no ice age either. Well, I can't go along with that one either, I've been in Geology and know better.

Anyway, to each their own truth. What I have read though is that during the occupations by Rome, there were factions of the church that were in dispute as to whether Jesus was God incarnate or a messenger of God. It got to the point that they would even attack each other over it. So Constantine could not have that happening since it interfered order and demanded that the church have a meeting and work it out but discarding what they could not agree upon and put the rest into a bible. He needed to use the church to help keep order in occupied countries. Sounds reasonable based on various historical documents.

There are too many stories of Jesus and documents found in caves from around his time and earlier that it is hard to believe he wasn't here. I would think that the Romans wouldn't care much as long as Jesus didn't say things against Rome but if he caused disorder then they would act on it. How true the stories in the Bible are is hard to say but it tends to be a book of historical data to some extent since they have located many of the places mentioned in the book, even those that were thought to be a myth.

I find the walls of Jericho interesting where they used sound and vibration to bring down the walls. I recall where we had to cross a bridge out of step as to prevent a build up of vibration when in the service. I also have read stories from Tibet where the monks use drums and horns to raise large stones to high heights in the mountain walls. I believe that is a lost science and we may discover it again some day. There is a lot about sounds that are yet to be discovered or has and kept quiet about. I think they are starting to use sound as a method to control riots as it can be a painful deterrent.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:17 am 
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Hmm, basically Jesus teaching is also dangerous to Roman rule, so i am not sure about the thing of controlling the poor as indicated in the article. On the contrary it makes more sense to me that the Romans agreed on killing Jesus because he was questioning the local religious establishment, which of course controlled the poor in that province (think of the analysis of Karl Marx which is fundamentally correct in my opinion).

But in the end it is a question of faith and believe and not science and reason.

I think the bible is a collection of old myths retold and reinvented over the generations. Many stories - escpecially from the old testament - are archetypical stories (creation myth, devastating destructions of big cities or even all lifeforms, plagues ect.) - you can find such stories in many tales for generations before Christ. I highly doubt you can get out much reliable historical data out of the bible...

But i agree, there are a lot of different layers in the bible - like knowledge of science which was lost or transplanted over the continents.

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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:24 am 
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Regarding the Bible, yes, many of the stories are probably Embellished but never the less, many of the places mentioned in the old Testament were thought to be myth but have since been discovered by archeologist. It would seem that since they actually existed that it does lend some credibility to the Bible. The stories of created are likely symbolic but then in those days, how would you describe concepts that are hard to comprehend?

Just think of a chariot with many windows coming down from heaven with faces in the windows. Sounds kind of like a ufo. And, if there were Aliens involved, would they not appear as angels or demons for lack of understanding what they were? Can't really know what things were back then but based on what we know today, it's not too far fetched at all to think there were Beings involved that were confused with Gods, Angels, Demons, Giants, etc. Especially when you compare descriptions of destruction of cities.

In Sanskrit, there are stories about Gods having a war and destroying cities. There are also ancient stories of a war over this planet so who can say for sure just what they were actually seeing in those days based on what they thought was magic or Beings from Heaven. I'm open for possibilities because there is a lot of evidence that there has been more advanced races on this planet. Archeologist have even found new or more advanced civilizations beneath what appears as older but less advanced races. as if civilization went down hill instead of advancing.

They can't even figure out who built many of the large stone buildings that have been unearthed, stones so large that they are around a hundred tons or more, not something that a bunch of slaves could handle as even today our large construction machinery can't lift it. (Based on estimates by Engineers.) No one knows how they were able to make stones fit without mortar and so close that a knife blade can't fit between them and the stones are odd shapes yet fit perfectly together. What a job that would be to keep lifting tons of stone to see if it fits then sand it some more??? Not hardly.

The mystery of it all is what makes it fascinating. Like what I mentioned before about how they ignore anomalies, things such as a spark plug found encased within rock that dates back thousands of years old. Fortean phenomena is hard to tell what is real or just someone making up a story but many of the articles in the book were taken from reliable newspapers back in the day. Perhaps many of the stories could be accounted for but maybe not all of them, just like Project Blue Book could not dismiss all of their investigations. But then I have no doubts since I know what I saw and there is documented record of it. That's why it doesn't matter what others want to believe or deny. Ironically, many of the things called a hoax by people had never even been checked out and it's all too common to reject anything that is not explainable. Personally, I prefer a bit of mystery and wonder. Makes life a little more interesting and I'm not so arrogant as to think we know everything.

What is science and reason in the days of quantum physics when even Einstein was baffled by spooky science but he at least did not deny it. We have much to learn for sure and just look how much we have learned in the past 100 years. Does anyone think there is nothing else to learn? That we discovered all there is? Think about it. Peace, and again, just my opinion. Thanks for participation.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:32 am 
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Well, i thought about it - took me a bit longer :-)

Maybe its my professional training, or a result of my upbringing, but while i certainly accept that we dont know "everything" and therefore a lot is open to possibilities (like UFOs mentioned in Holy Scriptures). But for me it is more relevant what is reasonable to assume that what is possible. What is more logic in respect to the alternatives, considering the facts we know so far and also judging from past experiences.

An example: my personal opinion is that for instance any interpretations that UFOs having something to do with human development is not very likely.

First, where are the UFO encounters in the last 500 years for which we would have much more visible evidence.

Second in what we know about space travel, its is highly unlikely that any being from a different world can travel to ours within reasonable time and effort (just like we cannot yet (!) travel to distant plantes in a reasonalbe time and effort). And if a foreign being managed to travel to earth thousands of years ago, where are they now?

Third: here comes my professional training in at the most i guess: sometimes i argue with a friend about the influence of biological realities on behaviour we say is "evil" - like killing, violence ect. While i admit that this behaviour is immanent in humans, my friend believes that humans have no other choice. The stronger will always pray on the weaker ect. I counter that there are many examples in nature where altruistic behaviour is visible, and non violence is used as an alternative course of action - because it gives the species an advantage in survival. Regardless of that, i still think that human beings have a choice. This might be the only real difference to other beings on this planet.

So to come to the core of the last point: some people tend to hold on behaviourism, nature or evolution to explain the unexplainable. Some tend to explain it with Religion, while others explain it with out-of-the word-explanations like UFOs (think of Erich von Däniken if you know him).

My way is to go with the most plausible and try to keep an open mind for all possibilities. So until know the construction of buildings lying underground cannot be explained today. But so was the same with the building of the Pyramids in Egpyt until 10 years or so, until somebody could explain it. Humans ara capable of astonishing things, and i dont think we need to look to the stars for explanation, but just doing research in the ground.

Of course, that is just my opinion and approach!
-JB

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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:54 pm 
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Apologize for this offtopic but dont you think Utlo is a great teacher?
I mean, when i watch both of you (your conversation that is) it reminds me of my first big chit chat (if i may call it that way) with Utlo.
He has this amazing talent of giving you completely random subject and making it interesting for you. Even more, he will make you dig in it with out him making a thing.

Once again apologize for my bad english. I just hope you get my point and please do continue, its most interesting. :v


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:20 am 
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It's been awhile since I've checked this post. Thank you H.S., all comments are welcome.

I did not notice the last posting of JBuford or I would have responded before now. Everyone's beliefs are valid until something happens or comes along that causes one to change their opinion. Since I have started my journey back in my twenties, I have change many previous ideas I held that were based strictly on science. Periodicals such as Fortean Phenomena and writers such as Brad Steiger were interesting reads but I was not sure what to make of those. It wasn't until I decided to start investigating all of the supposed truths and laws of nature from science that I began to see discrepancies in those beliefs. For the most part, when something came along that defied explanation, they were ignored or passed off as false.

Most people will accept what those that profess as being true and having been checked out as being an authority and therefore what they say has to be true. No need to look further so to speak. It's kind of like magic by magicians. We all assume without doubt that what they do is surely a trick of some sort and even they themselves claim it is. So therefore there is no such thing as magic and if it looks like it, we just have not figured out the trick. So it's no wonder people don't bother to look further, we have all been programmed as to what is what.

So, when someone that has been down the scientific road, it's like that magic, it has to be a trick or false because according to the laws of science we know what is what. Surprise, that way of thinking amongst many scientist today are realizing that is not at all true. There is still a lot of science we don't yet understand and therefore there may be many things that can account for what was written off as a trick or false in the past, especially now that Quantum mechanics has shown some mighty strange things. Myself, I have no problem with it because I do believe in the Spirit. I have absolutely zero doubt about it and I base what I see on that knowledge.

It's like the body, Doctors claim to understand how it works but present day science is showing that there is much more to the body than what they ever considered. And I know that as long as they do not take Spirit into account, they will NEVER fully understand the body because each cell has some sort of consciousness and they do not have a clue as to how all of those cells communicate with each other. We know that the body is electro-chemical but that does not explain how a cell knows what kind of cell it is. When you get injured and cells have to regrow, how does it know to grow for what it is and not something else? That's easy we say, based on the Stem Cell theory, once a cell has been programmed to be a type of cell, that's all it will ever be. But that overlooks how that cell was programmed in the first place, what told the Stem cell what to be? You see, every Stem cell has complete information to be any type of cell and once it is determined what type it will be, it loses the rest of the data of other cells and only retains the data for which it now is. But what told it? That's where Spirit comes in, it is an energy field that surrounds the body and in conjunction with the DNA determines the form things will take.

So if one does not accept that the energy field has any control of things, the Spirit (which is conscious energy) how can they account for how things work? They are missing the the bigger picture and only looking at parts of things in a microscope and claiming to understand the whole. Good luck with that kind of thinking. (can't see the forest for the trees) There is much to be learned in that regard and little by little we are getting there but unfortunately change is not always accepted and no one likes to think they spent most of their life believing one way only to find out they didn't know as much as they thought. Usually that is a problem with the older established group or authority on the subject. It is really so easy to see the contradictions once you understand the bigger picture. It's not something you can force on anyone to believe or understand, especially if they are closed minded and set in their way of thinking. How many times have inventions been based on old written off ideas and now show that they are actually valid when at the time were rejected as not viable? I've seen so many times that science has changed it's mind about things that at the time disgraced those that thought it was a good idea. Much of the new science today were already presented by scientist in days of old but they were rejected as fools. Many of those sciences still to this day are held back from us because of ignorance.

We can discuss some of those if anyone likes as I know of several that are deliberately being ignored for reasons you would not believe. One in particular I am very familiar with is a cure for cancer that was discovered in 1928. The only reason it never got to the public is because the one in charge of the Cancer Research Institute in Philadelphia (I won't mention his name) wanted to buy into the instrument involved and was told by the inventor that he didn't want to have it controlled by anyone as it was for the masses and that Big Wig in charge told him he would never see it come to fruition and then commenced to discredit him and he eventually had his equipment confiscated and I believe he was jailed and died in jail. That's the kind of ignorance and greed that controls much of the technology that has been suppressed.

It is illegal to use the aforementioned piece of equipment to for any cures unless it is strictly used as experimental but not on humans. There is plenty of documentation on it and at the University it was being used at, Doctors complained that they couldn't keep any bacteria or viruses in the building for experimenting on because whenever the machine was used, it would kill all of it. Can you believe a treatment with no side effects? That's what it was. I avoid mentioning the name of it or who it was because like I said, one can be in trouble using it or even suggesting it is a cure. It does however, work using frequencies. It works by stimulating the virus into growing at such a rate that it implodes. It does require that a qualified person such as a doctor, monitor the blood since killing viruses and bacteria in the body can make the blood toxic and has to be done over a period of time to allow the body to rid the toxins. But other than that, no side effects at all. Note that anyone detoxing needs to be very careful as not to poison themselves by flooding the blood stream to the point of killing their self.

A safe way to detox that I use myself is Bentonite Clay. It attracts toxic metals to it like a magnet. It's a slow process so it is safer. Animals in South Africa dig up clay from ponds and lakes to eat because the plants are toxic in the area and they would die if they didn't detox. How strange is it that even animals know this???? And some pharmacies do carry it. I got mine because we use Bentonite clay to seal ponds and I use to test their effectiveness for that purpose. I had various types from various places, such as Wyoben Bentonite which is a very good one. It's from Wyoming.

Point being, there are things out there that we are told or not told in this case that could cure people of disease but for sometimes ignorant reasons prevent us from any access to it. Sad but true. There are so many things like this that I refuse to donate any money whatever for any type of cancer research because we already have several methods to cure it and they are not allowed to be used legally by doctors. It's such a sad commentary. So this is just one instance where you can't just accept that the so called authorities on a subject know it all. Note also, I'm not advocating any treatment for anything is this discussion because they tend to look upon that as a crime today in the medical world.

Okay, said enough today. We can also discuss technology being withheld also so feel free to chime in.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 3:38 am 
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I know this doesn't have anything to do with Romans but the topic tends to cover a lot more than intended. The basic discussion what aimed toward the false assumption that Jesus even existed according the the article mentioned. It's so easy today to make claims of things which go against past beliefs but how did the stories of Bible continue to exist for over two thousand years? Should we also say that the Buddha didn't exist also, or maybe Muhammad? There are also those that do not believe there ever was a gas chamber in Germany either but try to tell that to the Jews that had family involved at the time. There were survivors after all. If nothing else, consider the Bible a book of history, no different than any historical literature we read about today, can any of it be proved? I sure some can with evidence. Many of the so called cities in the Bible were not located until in recent history so they did exist which means there has to be some truth to that book.


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 Post subject: Re: Who was invented by the Romans?
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:38 am
Posts: 487
Wow, it's been awhile since this was written. The reason I am adding to it now is because of the things mentioned in it and how it compares to today in regard to science. Now some of this may require that you are up to date on much of the secret space program. Yes the US does indeed have flying saucer types of ships that were backward engineered and or given. I have been following this for many years and am well aware that the technology that is now in the private sector is nowhere near what is behind closed doors.

I'd like to elaborate however what is not public information is perhaps not good to disclose as maybe there is a reason it to be secretive. I don't necessarily agree with that but unfortunately it is the way things are. All I'll say is that science has taken a quantum leap.


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