Arwen's Realm

[Ryft]

I'm currently playtesting a whole heap of Oblivion mods. Does anyone know of any obvious conflicts between any of the popular mods, or have any specific load orders that they would like to suggest?

I'm noting that some of the mods that I'm pretty sure I learned about from Arwen's site are no longer listed there, or seem to have been replaced or conflict with something else. Some of the things I expected to be on her load order list are likewise absent, suggesting that they are somehow defunct or interfere with something she likes more.

I'm going to include some of the things that I've learned about these mods, in case the information helps anyone else add mods to their game somewhat easier. Mods that I'm curious about, in particular, and my notes on them include:

DLC Mods & Shivering Isles Expansion: Official Mods should be loaded first, allowing any mod that comes after to modify them as well, the same way that you would assume the original game to be modified. Obviously not all mods take the expansion or DLC mods into account, but it's a start. I consider these "close to the base game" so I always assume an early load unless a mod specifically tells me otherwise. Likewise, the Unofficial Patch mods need to be loaded after these, obviously.

Bananasplit Better Cities: will Qarl's Harvest placement of fruit trees conflict with the new cities? Going to load it before Better Cities and let city placement take precedence. The Thievery mod noted just below needs to be loaded before Better Cities, but is compatible. I think it might interfere with the Burning Kvatch mod, since that adds torches to city walls in the inhabited cities. The torch placement might be off due to the altered cityscape from the B.B.C. mod. Going to skip Burning Kvatch, or load it second and playtest it first.

Thievery in the Imperial City and Enhanced Quest Roleplaying: will the dialog changes conflict with the new thief quests? My guess is no, but just in case I'm going to load EQR first and let the new quests remain unmodified, in case some sort of algorithm is responsible for the rewritten dialog options.

The TNR All Races Final mod looks great, but conflicts with any mod that overhauls NPCs, like Obscuro's, Adventurers, Francesco's, etc. It updates every NPC in the game, so any mod that changes NPCs might either get overwritten, or in turn overwrite a TNR npc. Will it conflict with Salmo the Baker? Crowded Roads? Tamriel Travelers? The Thievery mod's new NPCs? My guess is that it just doesn't fix their faces, but won't interfere otherwise. If they weren't accounted for when TNR was made, they shouldn't be affected at all.

The mod Tamriel Immersion Experience mod (T.I.E.) is a vanilla content overhaul mod, and it includes TNR as it's made by the same people. If you use TIE you don't need to use TNR. If you use TIE AND Shivering Isles, you DO need to use the TNR - SI esp as well. TIE is also completely compatible with Better Cities and the Stealth Overhaul mod Arwen mentioned... no load order preference is mentioned.



Mods that modify interior cells will likely interfere with one another, won't they?

I've found an object placement mod that claims to tweak-fix the placement of several objects that were messed up in the original game. I'm thinking this conflicts with the book placement mod Arwen suggests, as well as the citadel door fix. Going to load the tweak mod first, then the book mod and door mod.

Illuminated Within Revisited: there is a replacement IWR-Windows esp for if you use Better Cities available. Is it compatible with IWR Optimised Lights and Shutters esps? I'm not sure on this one... I'm using the IWR Windows file from the Better Cities rewrites, but the IWR Shutters and Lights esps from the Optimized (transitional) mod. I'll let you know if it seems to be working, or at least if it breaks one or the other somehow.

Natural Weather or Weather HDR, Natural Habitat, and Natural Water work fine together, apparently. No mention is made of Natural Vegetation, though. Does it work alongside the rest? What about Natural Wildlife (by tag)?

Darker Dungeons seems to work fine for Arwen, but what about Darker Nights, particularly Darker Nights for the Natural Environs mods? She didn't mention that, but I'm assuming they work together, mostly because of the name-suggested compatibility...

Harvestable Containers and Phitt's Worthwhile Thievery notes imply compatibility. Harvestable Containers adds a container script, whereas P.W.T. modifies contents.

TIE includes a LOT of changes that, like OOO, might conflict with certain aspects of the game. New alchemy ingredients... like in the Salmo mod; will Vim and Vigor honor these for making rations, or will the scrib jerky be useless for sustenance? TIE includes wildlife and animal behavior modification. Is there a load order preference or compatibility issues with the above mentioned Natural Wildlife? The mod greatly modifies containers and leveled loot lists in containers, alters level based NPC equipment to go up no further than dwarven (even at high levels), and removes the chance to buy a lot of high end items from vendors. Rare Items, Vendor Freedom, and maybe Phitt's might conflict or be neutralized. TIE includes an archery overhaul. Does it seriously conflict with the Eagle Eye Realistic Archery mod? My guess is that you can overwrite TIE and load the Eagle Eye mod afterwards if you like that one better, and still keep the rest of the TIE functionality. That would also mayhaps apply to the leveled lists... if you like Rare Items in particular, you can probably load it second and over write the TIE NPC and dungeon container loot.

Real Lights Versus Sunlit Interiors? I don't see Sunlit Interiors on Arwen's site any more, and I thought it used to be there.

What's the specific confliction with Vim and Vigor and Salmo the Baker? Arwen's site and the mod documentation seem to be suggesting two different things.

That's it for now, but I'll certainly post more information/questions as I find them.

[Myrrhte]

Quarl's harvest places a tree right in the middle of a path in Chedenhall, you can't delete it with the console.
For the rest I don't know much. ^^

[Ryft]

Thanks, good to know.

Sounds like the Better Cities mod has a lot of conflicts... one of those situations where you use it and little else as far as built content is concerned. Hopefully I can overcome its limitations.

[xit]

I found that this place is usually quite usefull for figuring out what load order to use.

[Ryft]

Very helpful, though it doesn't include everything I use, obviously.

I've noticed that OOO has a lite version that takes out most of the stuff that I didn't like about it! Very nice, and I might have to actually consider using this mod, now. Seems that Oscuro is determined to make a believer out of everybody!

[Arwen]

I'm currently playtesting a whole heap of Oblivion mods. Does anyone know of any obvious conflicts between any of the popular mods, or have any specific load orders that they would like to suggest?

Did you miss my MOD Load Order Page? That’s where I have ALL the mods that I am currently using listed – along with their load order.

I'm noting that some of the mods that I'm pretty sure I learned about from Arwen's site are no longer listed there, or seem to have been replaced or conflict with something else. Some of the things I expected to be on her load order list are likewise absent, suggesting that they are somehow defunct or interfere with something she likes more.

Some were removed due to conflicts with my current mods, some were merged with OOO, some I replaced when I found newer/better mods.

. . . the Unofficial Patch mods need to be loaded after these, obviously.

Actually the Unofficial Oblivion Patch should be the very first esp in your load order (otherwise it will overwrite parts of other mods that shouldn’t be overwritten).

The TNR All Races Final mod looks great, but conflicts with any mod that overhauls NPCs, like Obscuro's, Adventurers, Francesco's, etc. Will it conflict with Salmo the Baker? Crowded Roads? Tamriel Travelers?

TNR seems to works just fine with OOO (just load TNR first) – but some people seem to have had problems, so the best thing to do is use Wrye Bash (I’m not sure how to do that, as I can’t seem to get Wrye Bash to work with my Vista PC).

Tamriel Travelers and TNR are totally compatible, as long as you have the latest version of each.

Illuminated Within Revisited: there is a replacement IWR-Windows esp for if you use Better Cities available. Is it compatible with IWR Optimised Lights and Shutters esps? I'm not sure on this one... I'm using the IWR Windows file from the Better Cities rewrites, but the IWR Shutters and Lights esps from the Optimized (transitional) mod. I'll let you know if it seems to be working, or at least if it breaks one or the other somehow.

Install Illumination Within Revived, then install Illumination Within Revived Optimized, and use just the IWR - Windows Lights Shutters - Optimised.esp ("Lights, Windows and Shutters gradually phase in and out in during a transitional period in the schedules for Shops, Inns, Houses and Cathedrals.")

Natural Weather or Weather HDR, Natural Habitat, and Natural Water work fine together, apparently. No mention is made of Natural Vegetation, though. Does it work alongside the rest? What about Natural Wildlife (by tag)?

I don’t use the Natural Vegetation part of Natural Environments, as it conflicts with too many other mods (like Unique Landscapes).

There’s a bug with Natural Weather, where the weather often changes when you go inside and then return outdoors. NW-Storm & Sound seems to fix this (just be sure to follow NW-S&S’s readme directions). This mod also is merged with a fixed version of Weather Inside, so you no longer need that older mod.

Natural Wildlife works fine with Natural Environments. (OOO includes a merged version of Natural Wildlife, which is why I no longer have it on my list).

Rainbows in Tamriel also works fine with Natural Weather (load Rainbows after NW)

And Alive Waters is compatible with Natural Waters (load AW after NW)

Darker Dungeons seems to work fine for Arwen, but what about Darker Nights, particularly Darker Nights for the Natural Environs mods? She didn't mention that, but I'm assuming they work together, mostly because of the name-suggested compatibility...

Darker Dungeons only works if you load it after any other mod that alters lighting in any way. I load it very last – just to be sure.

Real Lights Versus Sunlit Interiors? I don't see Sunlit Interiors on Arwen's site any more, and I thought it used to be there.

Real Lights is a much better mod – I only used Sunlit Interiors because Real Lights didn’t work very well with HDR – but then I figured out how to alter the ini file to fix this. (see my mods page, under Real Lights)

What's the specific confliction with Vim and Vigor and Salmo the Baker? Arwen's site and the mod documentation seem to be suggesting two different things.

That’s because there are different versions of V&V. I’m using Vim & Vigor Overhauled, which was totally compatible with Salmo (when you use the Salmo V&V esp) – but a later version wasn’t compatible. And I just installed the latest version – but haven’t tested it with Salmo yet. The only incompatibility was that none of the Salmo food could be converted into V&V rations.

[xit]

The TNR All Races Final mod looks great, but conflicts with any mod that overhauls NPCs, like Obscuro's, Adventurers, Francesco's, etc. Will it conflict with Salmo the Baker? Crowded Roads? Tamriel Travelers?

TNR seems to works just fine with OOO (just load TNR first) – but some people seem to have had problems, so the best thing to do is use Wrye Bash (I’m not sure how to do that, as I can’t seem to get Wrye Bash to work with my Vista PC).

Strange, I'd have said load it after OOO. That works for me.
And Wrye Bash works fine under Vista for me as well.

[Ryft]

Thanks for the clarifications, Arwen.

And obviously I've visited your load-order page, you quoted me as saying so!

The Better Cities mod is amazing, from the little bit that I've seen about it. Not sure if it conflicts with Qarls Harvest yet, but I've been unable to drag myself away from the market place, either! Given that you spend so much time in cities, this mod really changes a lot of the game scenery. Highly recommended if your PC can handle the increased load. The mod authors have over 100 forum pages of discussions on this mod, just for the constant updating and compatibility tweaking that they do. Great work. They've managed to keep it compatible with Bank of Cyrodiil and other popular mods.

After checking out the stealth overhaul... the user interface for it was a bit intimidating, so I think I'm going to pass. I don't like being jumped by 20 pages of button configuration instructions before I even know what anything does.

[Arwen]

Strange, I'd have said load it after OOO. That works for me.
And Wrye Bash works fine under Vista for me as well.

I'm pretty sure that it was stated in an OOO thread that TNR should be loaded first. My understanding is that both mods change NPCs, and that OOO's are the more important changes. The idea is to install TNR to first change all the NPCs in vanilla OB, and then to install OOO next, which will overwrite TNR's NPCs changes in the relatively few NPC that it changes.

This is much the same as why the Unofficial OB Patch is the first esp that should be loaded. The UOBP needs to fix errors in the original game, before the other Mods add their own modifications.

Wyre Bash isn't working for me because I somehow developed a problem with Vista, where I cannot or change (or even look at) the properties of files - when I click on properties - Windows explorer always crashes. This is the only problem that I've had with Vista, and I'm not willing to reinstall my entire operating system just to try to fix this one minor problem (at least not during my current semester).

[Ryft]

This is the only problem that I've had with Vista, and I'm not willing to reinstall my entire operating system just to try to fix this one minor problem (at least not during my current semester).

Ah, good call, Arwen!

[Arwen]

Thanks for the clarifications, Arwen.

And obviously I've visited your load-order page, you quoted me as saying so!

The Better Cities mod is amazing, from the little bit that I've seen about it. Not sure if it conflicts with Qarls Harvest yet, but I've been unable to drag myself away from the market place, either! Given that you spend so much time in cities, this mod really changes a lot of the game scenery. Highly recommended if your PC can handle the increased load. The mod authors have over 100 forum pages of discussions on this mod, just for the constant updating and compatibility tweaking that they do. Great work. They've managed to keep it compatible with Bank of Cyrodiil and other popular mods.

After checking out the stealth overhaul... the user interface for it was a bit intimidating, so I think I'm going to pass. I don't like being jumped by 20 pages of button configuration instructions before I even know what anything does.

Just follow the readme - I just left most of those on the default setting. You can always just call up the menu later if you want to change any setting (so it's not a big deal).

I tested the latest release of Vim & Vigor Overhauled with Salmo the Baker. The food items from Salmo can not be used to make V&V's rations. That's a bit of a bummer, but it's not really a big deal, since you can still use all of Salmo's food in making potion. Maybe this will be fixed at some point, but I love V&V so much that I can live with this minor problem. I would give up Salmo and most other mods before I would stop using V&V.

I'll give Better Cities a try at some point - but first I think I want to check out open cities. And T.I.E. looks really interesting, but I'm pretty happy with the way that my game is playing with OOO right now. (And I don't want to start my game over again for a while).

[Ryft]

Yeah, if you already like your game with OOO, don't bother with TIE.

Better Cities has been amazing so far, but if you use Qarls Texture packs with it prepare for a frame rate hit...

They also add some things that you might not like... gallows, chopping blocks, and bodies and such in some of the towns, but it comes with both a game-start customization menu if you want to disable something in particular, as well as detailed instructions left in your inventory that tell you step-by-step on how to alter the same features using the editor. In fact, a few simple editor commands can toggle quite a bit of their additions on or off, which makes it somewhat customizable. One of the things besides the gore that gets a lot of mention are the large wine barrels that you see in some places, but... you don't have to have them, with the console commands! Customization is nice.

Better Cities is interfering with some other mod I have installed, and is making tears in the ground. I'm in the process of trying to figure out what is causing it.

If you would like to see some aerial shots of the Better Cities, go to... http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index ... 0642&st=20

...and go down to the fourth post. It gives you a before/after idea of what they added. The only city I'm not wild about is Skingrad, as they added a lot of greenery and I thought the city was always quite urban to begin with, as it had narrow streets and tall buildings already, but... they did make some changes for the better, too. If I decide that I don't like it, I can always use the modular esp files instead, and just not use that city, which is the great thing about their modular system (on top of the customization allowed for each city). And apparently another guy agreed with me and made his own Skingrad "lite" version of Better Cities, which removes lots of trees and such. Not sure how much user support you can get from him by comparison to the main BBC mod, though, should changes need to be made.

Downsides: for an immersion killer... there ARE some doors you can't use. Some doors were added to explain how the new patrolling guards got atop certain walls. You can toggle both the doors and the guards if you don't like them, though! And they added some additional buildings in places that are meant to be used by other popular mods (like Bank of Cyrodiil) that do not have their own default interiors (and thus can't be used), so you won't be able to get into every new building that you see, unless you go download a bunch of additional mods. This isn't much different than, say, the non-functioning Orrery door that didn't open until you purchased that particular DLC quest. The good news: 100 pages of discussions revolving around tweaking Better Cities to not interfere with those and other mods, with a synopsis of the current status every ten pages. This means you can use something you might not be familiar with (like Bank of Cyrodiil) with some confidence that there won't be issues. It also gives you some blank slates to work with if you want to make some mods of your own.

For anyone starting to feel like they are getting bored with spending time in the cities of the game, the mod is a nice pick-me-up.

[Xerius]

Wyre Bash isn't working for me because I somehow developed a problem with Vista, where I cannot or change (or even look at) the properties of files - when I click on properties - Windows explorer always crashes. This is the only problem that I've had with Vista, and I'm not willing to reinstall my entire operating system just to try to fix this one minor problem (at least not during my current semester).

Fairly simple solution to that.

As Xit can tell you, windows vista is flawless, so you are not actually having any problems with it.

[Ryft]

Ouch! I'm just gonna... take a step away from that one... in case someone starts swinging.

[xit]

Wyre Bash isn't working for me because I somehow developed a problem with Vista, where I cannot or change (or even look at) the properties of files - when I click on properties - Windows explorer always crashes. This is the only problem that I've had with Vista, and I'm not willing to reinstall my entire operating system just to try to fix this one minor problem (at least not during my current semester).

Fairly simple solution to that.

As Xit can tell you, windows vista is flawless, so you are not actually having any problems with it.

I never said it was flawless. I think it's a good OS, but not flawless.
Please don't put words into my mouth which I haven't said.
It might be possible to make a flawless OS if it only had to run on one computer and only run one program.
But since OS's have to handle n different programs on m different computers I'd consider it rather impossible to make a flawless OS.

Apart from that I'm rather curious as to what caused that error on Arwen's pc.
It sounds ... weird.

And let's get back on topic shall we?

[Ryft]

Yes, quite.

I've had some trouble lately with extracting archived data from downloaded mod files. Maybe someone can help me with this?

As an example, I open a file in winrar, and inside the archive is a folder named "blahblahmod" and inside that is a folder named "data" and inside that are three folders... meshes, textures, and sound. And of course inside those are more folders, and tons of files. Ordinarily I can highlight these last three folders and extract them to Oblivion -> Data and they go into the right places, merging the archive into the appropriate file structure.

Sometimes, though, I try this an in my data folder I find... a folder named blahblahmod. With another data folder in that. So the archive isn't merged properly, obviously, as there are two more folders in the file path that aren't supposed to be there.

So far my workaround has been to extract to desktop, and make separate compressed archives out of sound, meshes, and texture, and then extract them into their proper places so that they merge correctly. And then delete the big mess on my desktop.

But is there an easier way?

[xit]

Why do first extract the mod to the desktop, and then put the contents back into other archives?
I'd say it would be easier to just extract the whole thing once onto the desktop, and from there copy the files/folders you need into the Oblivion -> Data folder.

[Arwen]

Most MOD archive files (if they are packed correctly) can be installed with Oblivion MOD Manager directly. This also makes it much easier to remove or upgrade the MOD at a later point.

BTW: Has anyone tried Cobl (Common Oblivion)? I'm currently testing it out with a few other Coblized mods, like Tamriel Travelers, Vim & Vigor Advanced, and Salmo the Baker. Coble adds more items to the game, and with Cobl, you can use Salmo's food to make V&V rations, and the traveling merchants now sell Salmo's goods.

Here's the link: Common Oblivion
and here's the link for Coblized Mods

[Ryft]

Arwen: not used either of those mods, but I'll be sure to check them out.

And how is it that ObMM can install mod files directly? I thought it could only do that with OMOD files.

Xit: with a very large file directory for a large and complicated mod, it becomes difficult to use copy-paste to do that. As an example, in each of those meshes/textures/sounds folders are 5 or 6 more folders, each, and I didn't bother to explore the file structure further from there. Using copy/paste would take quite a while, since I can't copy/paste the data folder directly without overwriting (rather than merging into) the old one. Most of the folders also already exist within Oblivion's directory, so they suffer from the same drawback in that I can't copy.paste them directly without overwriting other things that the game will be looking for later.

It becomes organizational tedium to manually copy/paste individual files into their proper place, and making my own archive file is far less hassle for a large mod like Anvil Bay Expansion.

[Arwen]

Arwen: not used either of those mods, but I'll be sure to check them out.

And how is it that ObMM can install mod files directly? I thought it could only do that with OMOD files.

Ryft, you just selected [Create] (right next to Activate), and then use the [Add Archive] option.
Once the zip file loads, you can right click on the main esp to import the mod details.
You can also right click on an esp that you don't want to use (the optional ones), and select "remove From omod".
Then just select [Create omod] - and you're done.

But I should warn you that creating the OMOD can take a long time with very large MODs, but it works great with most others.

[xit]

Xit: with a very large file directory for a large and complicated mod, it becomes difficult to use copy-paste to do that. As an example, in each of those meshes/textures/sounds folders are 5 or 6 more folders, each, and I didn't bother to explore the file structure further from there. Using copy/paste would take quite a while, since I can't copy/paste the data folder directly without overwriting (rather than merging into) the old one. Most of the folders also already exist within Oblivion's directory, so they suffer from the same drawback in that I can't copy.paste them directly without overwriting other things that the game will be looking for later.

It becomes organizational tedium to manually copy/paste individual files into their proper place, and making my own archive file is far less hassle for a large mod like Anvil Bay Expansion.

Just copy the whole thing into the Data folder. That's what I always do.
If the mod wants to replace something, then it's because it's meant to replace that file.

[Ryft]

Gah! You are SO not getting this! Xit, you're a smart guy... why aren't you understanding? Especially with your computer background!

Here's an example... as simple as I can make it. If you can't follow this logic... I'm hopeless in my ability to explain this.

Let's say I have a mod that I unzip to my desktop. Now on my desktop I have a folder, called... "randommod". Inside "randommod" is a file called "randommod.esp" and a folder called "Data" with a few different things in it. Obviously this "Data" folder is meant to represent the "Data" directory in the "Oblivion" install directory, right?

So what happens when I select "Data" from my desktop (not the files and folders in Data, just the big folder itself) and copy/paste it into my Oblivion directory?

Answer: it completely erases... overwrites, the old Data folder that used to be there. All of my other mods would then be gone. Obviously I don't want that!

In short, I'm not worried about overwriting files, I am worried about overwriting directories. When you unpack an archive to the Data folder (and when it works correctly), it overwrites only files with the same file name... it merges the file structures, rather than replacing one with the other. This is what I want to happen. The problem is that sometimes the mods I download don't unpack correctly, so it doesn't preserve this directory structure.

[xit]

Ah, ok now I understand the problem.

It never occured to me that it would also overwrite the old directory and delete every other file in there.
Overwrite some old files that the mod replaces, sure, but not delete every other file and directories.
Never met an OS that would do that.
Although, DOS did it as far as I remember...

Anyhoo, if it's safe to extract from an archive to the Oblivion -> data folder, then it should also be safe to first extract the archive, and then copy the contents to the Oblivion -> data folder.
So in theory there shouldn't be any problems.

[Ryft]

Right. And that does work, for simple mods, where the only contents of "Data" are an esp and/or esm file(s).

The problem comes with a large mod like Anvil Bay Expansion, or the Oblivion Stereo Sound Overhaul. In the Anvil Bay Expansion archive, as an example, the folder named "Data" has three more folders in it, all of which are already in the game file directory, so I can't copy/paste those, either. Textures, for example... the A.B.E. mod adds some new textures, but if I simply copy/paste the new textures folder, I will have a textures directory with 6 textures in it instead of 60.

So the solution is to go into the textures folder and copy/paste the contents, right? But then that folder has additional folders in it that are also present in the Oblivion directory that I can't overwrite, for the same reason. So same problem, and potentially the same solution, but it's a tedious hassle to carefully copy over a very complicated file structure one folder at a time.

And for some reason the file structure isn't kept when I extract to Data, like it should... so I have to extract to desktop, re-archive it correctly, and then re-extract it correctly... since apparently I know how to make a compressed archive correctly and mod makers don't. I don't know any simpler way at the moment for a complex mod.

Out of curiosity, xit... you say your OS merges (adds to and selectively overwrites) rather than completely replaces with the copy/paste function? Aren't you using Windows Vista, though? Every version of Windows I've ever used (which doesn't include Vista, yet) behaves the way I described. Is it a Windows setting that's different by default for foreign copies of the program?

[xit]

Strange, every version of Windows I can remember have worked like that. At least from Win 98 to XP to Vista.
Can't remember Win 95 and 3.11. So I wonder why you're having trouble with it.

Oh, and I use the English version of Vista (and Win 98 and XP).
Hate the Danish since Microsoft usually can't translate it properly, and it's usually more prone to bugs (at least Win 98 and XP were).
Besides I get all new OSs for free in English from my university now.

[Ryft]

This is my current load order...

Code: Select all

no longer relevent, deleted to shorten thread

I'm still getting some errors, but so far it's minor. Notably Harvest-Containers is causing certain containers to open and close incorrectly, so I might need to drop it. If I keep it, I need to play with the load order for it and Travelers Inns, as I've noticed the modified inn containers aren't showing the animation, and I'm wondering if changing the load order will fix that (and if it will mess up the container persistency).

I had to drop Anvil Bay Expansion, sadly. Some of the containers were floating, and it killed my frame rate in the dock area.

A few other mods that I tried I also had to drop. The waterfront tunnel for the IC conflicted with unique landscapes, so that's gone, now. I tried IC Expanded, which adds a subterranean level to most of the areas of the imperial city. The mod was nice in theory, but the level of design and craft was poor, overall. Some tiles didn't align properly, for example. In an underground garden, there were no sources for natural light, at all. It was just combinations of issues like these that made me drop the mod, which was a minor shame as the idea for it was pretty good.

[Ryft]

edit: er, just noticed that this was a double post from ages ago!

[Arwen]

I have to get to classes, but I know that you should load xuldarkforest.esp before Qarls_Harvest.esp

[Ryft]

Oh? Good to know, and thanks!

[Ryft]

Quick question: I've not once gotten Denock Arrows to work, despite loading it dead last of late. Mod list is similar to the one above, though I've taken out a few things. Know anything that it interferes with?

Also: if you use the bedroll mod (which I personally love), don't get thrown in jail. It asks you if you want to serve your term, but the "pick up bedroll?" dialog box keeps that from ever happening, and you can never sleep to get out of jail. You'll have to save, unload the mod, reload the game, get out of jail, save again, reload the mod, and reload your game. Aggravating.

[Arwen]

Denock Arrows has always work flawlessly for me - have you changed the default "grab" key? (default is "z")

From the See-You-Sleep Readme:
Generally any mod that deals with sleep or beds will have some incompatibility.
Survival Suite: Sleep
* Load See You Sleep after.
* Type in the console "set vBed to 2".
* Bed quality won't make a difference any more.

From ES Forums: As a last resort (not fully tested): "Type in console "startQuest P1DaddSleepy", which will add a lesser power that you can use on the bedrolls that will hopefully convert them to ones you can sleep in. What it does is clone the bed, disable the original and place the clone in its place."

[Ryft]

Eh, it's not worth that much trouble, honestly.

My controls are all still set to defaults, at least for the keyboard. I have my mouse set up differently, but that shouldn't matter too much.

[Myrrhte]

Denock arrows doesn't work with the beta version of obse 0.15. It should be fixed in the next update I believe.

[Ryft]

Ah ha... changed my version of obse and it works fine now.

Most excellent!

[Ryft]

Finally decided to take the plunge and seriously try Vim and Vigor Overhauled.

And since I wasn't using Real Sleep anymore, I figured See You Sleep was a strong possibility.

However, See You Sleep is causing me to crash to desktop partway through the Bethesda logo loading screen. Does anyone know any way to fix this?

For reference, my load order for the applicable mods is as follows:

FF_VV_Overhauled.esp (that's the Salmo the Baker version)
VVO-SI.esp (V&V for SI expansion)
P1DseeYouSleep.esp
P1DseeYouSleep - DLCVileLair.esp
P1DseeYouSleep - VVAdvanced.esp

[Arwen]

Your load order looks correct, but you gave that you are using Vim and Vigor Overhauled . . . yet the See-you-sleep patch is for Vim and Vigor Advanced (which is the Cobl. version of V&V).

It's funny that you're switching over to V&V and I just decided to switch to an alternative (FF_Real_Thirst-Cobl/Real Hunger-Cobl/Real Sleep/Realistic Fatigue), which mostly seems to working with See-you-sleep (still messing with load order) - the problem is that See-you-sleep still has some minor bugs/incompatibility that hasn't been entirely fixed yet (it's a fairly new mod).

I love V&V, but it never was able to do everything quite right. My biggest complaint was that it was unbalanced - really hard at lowest skill level, but quickly became too easy at just moderate skill level. Plus the ratio packs are a bit clunky and remove a little of the feel that you're actually eating real food.

Also there are some incompatibility issues, because of the way that it used fatigue - which was why I finally had to reluctantly stop using V&V. Duke Patrick's SCA Combat mod isn't compatible with V&V. You can run the two together, but the fatigue no longer works correctly with either one. Basically what happens is that you no longer lose enough fatigue, as it constantly regenerates. And loss of fatigue (getting tired while swinging a weapon) is an important part of the SCA mod.

I'm currently completely redoing my OB Journal mod pages (which is a major task), but I hope to get my updated journal posted later today. I highly recommend using Cobl (Common Oblivion) and Coblized versionsl of mods (which are slowly being released). Cobl improves compatability between mods - and the sharing of resources. What I'm hoping for is a Cobl version of a sleep mod and of See-you-sleep.

Oh, if you decide to remove any version of V&V, make sure that you follow the uninstall instructions in readme exactly (or you'll really mess up your fatigue).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: I've got See-You-Sleep to work with Real-Sleep and aaaBors' Bedrolls mod . . . well, sort of. What you have to do is load in this order:
RealSleep.esp
P1DseeYouSleep.esp
aaaBorsBedrolls.esp

That's the only way that the Bedrolls mod will work - but then See-You-Sleep will not work with any bedrolls, but it seems to work fine with other beds. For now I can live with this.

[Ryft]

Thanks for the tips, Arwen. I agree that I could probably live with See You Sleep not working on bedrolls and still find it worth using.

This is so weird, I just discovered Real Thirst not two minutes before checking these forums! I'm strongly considering using it instead of V&V, and going back to my old reliable Real-Sleep/Hunger, which at least I am familiar with.

V&V seemed nice, but it didn't seem to be working correctly last night, and it does clutter your inventory really badly with eating utensils, water skins, rations and meals. I've already got enough doo-hickeys in my inventory... quest item levelers, hotkey torches, etc. Adding more is the opposite of what I really want, given that I use mods like keychain to cut down on needless clutter.

(And to boot, keychain doesn't even seem to collect all the keys into it, ever!)

[Arwen]

I used Real Hunger before I switched to V&V, but that was a much earlier version. The Cobl version is nice, since it separates Alchemy from eating and any Cobl food (like Salimo's) is available and can be eaten. Right now the Cobl version of Real Thirst just seems to add Cobl water sources. And there isn't yet a Cobl version of Real Sleep. Oh, the Cobl versions also are easy to configure and change with the Cobl options menu (in the inventory).

One of the main reasons that I switched to V&V was that I couldn't find a fatigue mod / encumbrance mod combination that I liked. But Realistic Fatigue seems to do most everything that I was looking for and it works perfectly with SCA combat. But I did decide to stop using my Reduced Backward Running mod, as it was like having a double penalty (lost fatigue while not really running).

This is my current replacement mods for V&V:
FF_Real_Thirst.esp
FF_Real_Thirst, Cobl.esp
Real Hunger, Cobl.esp
RealSleep.esp
RealisticFatigue.esp

BTW: A DarNified UI allows you to see a lot more of your inventory at once.

[Ryft]

I have thus far stayed away from cobl anything. I am spending far more time playing around with mods than I am actually playing the game, which is a bit sad.

There are other mods that stop you from running backwards, I'm pretty sure. Some of them make the backwards button do a combination of alternate run-walk commands, and I think those are to be avoided as they might make it hard to aim properly in first person view... your movement would go in fits and starts, and while it simulates the speed of backpedaling it wouldn't do it smoothly, I don't expect.

See You Sleep is still causing crashing. It's conflicting with something else... not sure what...

Edit: and now that I've gotten rid of V&V and See You Sleep, I'm still getting crashes, caused by the Revised Running/Fatigue mod. And moDems City Life turned out to be the same as the other City Life mod I'd tried before, with NPCs named Captain Jack Sparrow. That just won't fly, I'm afraid. I just can't win today!

Oblivion.esm
Qarls_Harvest.esm
Better Cities Resources.esm
Bab.esm
[s]DA Run Fatigue.esm[/s]
[s]VVOverhauled.esm[/s]
DLCShiveringIsles.esp
Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - SI.esp
Knights.esp
Knights - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Knights.esp
HorsesTurnFaster.esp
DLCHorseArmor.esp
DLCHorseArmor - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - HorseArmor.esp
DLCOrrery.esp
DLCOrrery - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Orrery.esp
DLCFrostcrag.esp
DLCFrostcrag - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - FrostCrag.esp
DLCThievesDen.esp
DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch.esp
DLCThievesDen - Unofficial Patch - SSSB.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - ThievesDen.esp
DLCVileLair.esp
DLCVileLair - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - VileLair.esp
DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
DLCMehrunesRazor - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - MehrunesRazor.esp
DLCBattlehornCastle.esp
DLCBattlehornCastle - Unofficial Patch.esp
SM Plugin Refurbish - Battlehorn.esp
DLCSpellTomes.esp
DLCSpellTomes - Unofficial Patch.esp
No psychic guards v1.2.esp
attack and hide medium v2.0.esp
No More Annoying Comments.esp
ChaseCameraMod.esp
Landmarks, w Wells.esp
immersive_caves_auto.esp
Oblivion Citadel Door Fix.esp
815--No- persistant enchantment glow fix-TESSource.esp
P1DkeyChain.esp
ln.esp
Living Economy.esp
Living Economy - Items.esp
Cutthroat Merchants.esp
Smarter Mercantile Leveling - Multi.esp
TNR ALL RACES FINAL.esp
TNR - ShiveringIsles.esp
Book Jackets Oblivion.esp
Real Lava v1.2.esp
_cities_alive_at_night.esp
IWR-Lights.esp
Ethereal - Eyes.esp
IWR-Windows.esp
IWR-Shutters.esp
_Real_Lights.esp
Natural_Weather_with_darker_Nights_by_Max_Tael_RD.esp
Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp
Natural_Water_by_Max_Tael.esp
Natural_Vegetation_by_Max_Tael.esp
tag_NaturalWildlife.esp
_darker_dungeons.esp
Dungeon Actors Have Torches 1.6 DT.esp
Drop Lit Torches Weight.esp
faster-grass.esp
Faster-trees.esp
Timescale 5x Real-Life.esp
1203-swclock-TESSource.esp
Days&Months.esp
Lynges Unlimited Death Reload Time.esp
LevelSlow-4x.esp
All+5AttributeModifiers.esp
sr_retroactive_health.esp
VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
AliveWaters.esp
AliveWaters - Slaughterfish Addon.esp
No Quest Items [v.1.0].esp
PersuasionOverhaul.esp
PersuasionSI.esp
Quest Award Leveller.esp
Quest Award Leveller - Vile Lair.esp
Quest Award Leveller - Knights of the Nine.esp
Quest Award Leveller - Mehrunes Razor.esp
HouseMapMarkersOnlyBought.esp
Crowded Roads.esp
Travelers Inns.esp
LoadingScreens.esp
LoadingScreensSI.esp
LoadingScreensAddOn.esp
Distant Chapel Bells.esp
Symphony of Violence.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Hairstyles.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Palace Guard Armour.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Glenroy and Captain Renault Blades Armour.esp
M.O.E. - Unlocked Dremora Armour and Robes.esp
1140-Jump Adjustment-TESSource.esp
2367-1.0-Borderless Cyrodiil-TESSource.esp
Drum_Fix.esp
Levelled Spell Names.esp
Get Wet.esp
Alternative Start by Robert Evrae.esp
Denock Arrows.esp
Expanded Hotkeys and Spell Delete v1.0.esp
WCGL - Wilderness Creatures 1.1.esp
RareItemsv1.18.esp
Thievery_Normal_Thrill.esp
VendorFreedom.esp
Harvest [Flora].esp
Harvest [Flora] - Shivering Isles.esp
Harvest [Flora] - DLCVileLair.esp
Harvest [Flora] - DLCFrostcrag.esp
Harvest[Containers].esp
Harvest[Containers] - Player Home Add-on.esp
FF_Real_Thirst.esp
RealHunger.esp
RealSleep.esp
[s]P1DseeYouSleep.esp
P1DseeYouSleep - DLCVileLair.esp[/s]
aaaBorsBedrolls.esp
[s]reduced_nofran.esp
reduced_fran.esp
DA Sprint.esp
DA Fatigued Running.esp[/s]
Salmo The Baker v2.0.esp
Oscars_Nicer_Grass-3346.esp
[s]moDem's City Life.esp[/s]
Jagnot- Imperial City Library V1.3.esp
Bab.esp
Lyre's Imperial City Bab Boutique.esp
Better Cities Full.esp
xulBeachesOfCyrodiilLostCoast.esp
xulRollingHills_EV.esp
xulStendarrValley.esp
xulColovianHighlands_EV.esp
xulImperialIsle.esp
xulAncientRedwoods.esp
xulLushWoodlands.esp
xulAncientYews.esp
xuldarkforest.esp
Qarls_Harvest.esp
XulEntiusGorge.esp
xulTheHeath.esp
ULFallenLeafEverglade.esp
BCChorrol-ChorrolHinterland fix.esp
AmbientTownSounds.esp
Musical Immersion 1.0.esp

[jayde]

MOD Load Order.

There is some software on the forums which will help with the load order of MOD's, it is easy to use and it takes most of the guess work out of load order issues.

BETTER OBLIVION SORTING SOFTWARE

A simple "one-click" program for users to quickly optimise and avoid detrimental conflicts in their oblivion mod load-order.

Features:

■ Checks and correctly positions all the mod files involved with an 'FCOM Convergence' installation including partial or complete installations of OOO, MMM, Fran's, Oblivion WarCry, Bob's Armory, Loth's Blunt Weapons (for NPCs), COBL, Tamriel Travellers, Exnem's Runeskulls and so on.
■ Correctly positions all the mod files involved with OOO, MMM, Better Cities, Open Cities and other very large mods.
■ Supports over 8000 mods and counting.
■ Warns the user about any commonly miss-installed FCOM related files.
■ Provides useful load order notes.
■ Provides Wrye Bash with Bash Patch tag suggestions which it will import.
■ Is mostly right (most of the time)!
■ Is under constant development and improvement by a team of modders and Oblivion experts.
■ Differentiates between FCOM and non-FCOM set-ups.

Better Oblivion Sorting Software (BOSS) will reorder all the mods it knows about (listed in the masterlist.txt database file) and puts ones it doesn't know after. The unknown mods will be in the same order as you had them before running BOSS.
BOSS is designed to assist installing FCOM, MMM and a wide variety of other mods and help mod users avoid serious conflicts. It isn�t a complete solution to load ordering issues as there are far too many mods out there (estimated at about 30 thousand). To properly place mods the program doesn't know about, a good working knowledge of Oblivion mod load ordering is going to be necessary. Some research and documentation reading will go a long way.

On Tesnexus - http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=20516

Bethesda Forums - http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index ... g+software
or - Bethesda Game Studios Forums > Oblivion > Oblivion Mods > ([RELz] BOSS. Better Oblivion Sorting Software)

This is thread No. 7, so you will have to link to the previous threads, if you want to read about which mods are included etc.

This software is not infallible, you may have to hand order some MOD's yourself, mainly by cut & paste, but I have been using it for about 3-4 months and it makes life much easier, especialy if you are trying mods out or testing, 90% of the time it will be placed in the the right order.

Hope this post will help someone from tearing thier hair out trying to get the right load order.

[Arwen]

I have thus far stayed away from cobl anything. I am spending far more time playing around with mods than I am actually playing the game, which is a bit sad.

Edit: and now that I've gotten rid of V&V and See You Sleep, I'm still getting crashes, caused by the Revised Running/Fatigue mod. And moDems City Life turned out to be the same as the other City Life mod I'd tried before, with NPCs named Captain Jack Sparrow. That just won't fly, I'm afraid. I just can't win today!

You need to use the moDem's City Life - BP Compat.esp . . . it should be in the Better Cities Extra folder . . . Load it just before Better Cities. I'm using Realistic Fatigue. so I can't help you with the Revised Running/Fatigue mod.

[librapoet]

One quick note: For those who use Thieve's Arsenal (I recommend it, as you can knock people out as opposed to killing everyone - handy for you thieves) you need to load this near to last, in order to avoid conflicts with other mods that boots damage done by marksmanship or alter marksman talents. I also recommend Thieves bow of Theft for this mod - a Zero damage bow (or add your own, as you please.) Having a Zero damage bow with knock out arrows guarantees you will not accidentally kill NPC's while thieving, particularly for the guild.