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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 4:20 pm 
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My feelings are now very mixed, after viewing some of Todd's interviews about Skyrim. Don't get me wrong . . . I'm very much looking forward to this RPG. And there looks to be some major improvements from Oblivion. But after some of the way Oblibion was mainstreamed (from Morrowind), in order to appeal to more gamers (as in more casual gamers, instead of the more experienced RPG fans), some of what I'm hearing is making my elf senses tingle (and not in a good way). I'm beginning to think that true CRPGs are a thing of the past, now that all RPGs seem to be hybrids (like RPG/FPS).

I'm VERY concerned about the removal of Attributes and Birth-signs . . . and don't see how just replacing them with perks, fast leveling, and automatic skill increases, can give the game the same depth, as far as being able to create unique characters.

I'm also bothered that the game is being made primarily for the XBox and then ported to the PC (with very limited DX11 support). So far most of the focus has been on combat (and dragons) and the +100 dungeons, which leads me to believe that combat is again the primary focus (instead of character development and well written quests). I hope I am wrong, and the default game will mostly live up to the hype this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:34 pm 
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Oh dear, it looks like automatically regenerating health is in now, too. Pete said it would be "slow," but this does not change that I am vehemently opposed to this happening and will definitely be the first thing I mod out. Not only is regenerating health a dumbing-down tactic that removes challenge from the game, but it is also a cliched feature now, too, considering that about 95% of the entire rest of the gaming industry uses it now.

Bit of a kick in the face for the more hardcore roleplayers.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:37 am 
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Thomas Kaira wrote:
Oh dear, it looks like automatically regenerating health is in now, too. Pete said it would be "slow," but this does not change that I am vehemently opposed to this happening and will definitely be the first thing I mod out. Not only is regenerating health a dumbing-down tactic that removes challenge from the game, but it is also a cliched feature now, too, considering that about 95% of the entire rest of the gaming industry uses it now.

Bit of a kick in the face for the more hardcore roleplayers.


Do not be so hasty about this. You know that time passes much faster in TES games. And you heal by resting. What amount of game time it take to heal by resting - few hours. But the time compared to us is 1:30 so time there passes 30 times faster so why not let the body heal by itself over time. We in real world do this all the time. And in TES series healing has been always much faster than it is realistic even with just sleeping. It is even logical that you don't have to sleep to let your wounds heal, sleeping just speeds the process up.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:08 pm 
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My Fallout Realism Tweaks' Med-Tec module adds Health Regen, and this actually makes the game more difficult (because of the way that I did it).

But (based on what I know so far about Skyrim) I seriously doubt that Beth is going to include any real conditions, like I did, or slow down Sleep Regen, or make Regen as slow as I did.

My Health Regen is based on Timescale and amount of player's Permanent HPs. The rate of regen is roughly equal to your Permanent HP amount every 10 game hours. (Your regen rate is the same when you are sleeping or waiting.)

But Your Health Stops Regenerating when your Wound Level is 2 or greater (moderate wounds), or when you are Thirsty (Water Need 14), Hungry (Food Need 6), or Very Tired (Sleep Need 10).

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:51 pm 
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Just for your amusement Arwen, I may well be waiting for the Arwen Skyrim Realism Tweaks before I buy it. I tried playing Fallout New Vegas without them and it was totally not fun. I'm planning on getting Oblivion reinstalling and remodded and plan to be there for a while. I'm suspecting modders will be moving from Oblivion to Skyrim so the current Oblivion mods are probably the last ones. Oblivion will be a good place to wait for the good Skyrim mods to materialize.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:51 pm 
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And that's exactly the kind of health regen I would like to see, because it is meaningful and makes sense. After all, minor wounds do have a way of healing up on their own, it's how the body works.

My problem with Skyrim's system is, as you said, it's likely going to be unrestricted regeneration no matter your health level, which does NOT make sense and is only really there to make the game even easier. We already have healing magic and potions, so an unrestricted health trickle, no matter how slow, is redundant, and all it will serve is to lower the difficulty.

One of the trademarks of the Roleplaying genre (until now, at least) is that healing is 100% conditional. You can only heal up under certain circumstances, and in the case of the Elder Scrolls, the conditions always were to use healing magic, drink a potion, or settle down and rest. Automatic regeneration can still be made to mesh, as done right it can be used to simulate minor wounds healing themselves over time, but that is still conditional; the condition is that you don't get seriously injured.

I will always be opposed to unconditional automatic healing in Roleplaying games, as it violates the concept of roleplaying and immersion and instead communicates to me "you are playing a game." There was no need to add it in for a convenience factor, it was never difficult to heal yourself in TES games, so I don't understand why they are trying to fix something that wasn't broken because they obviously are not trying to expand on the health system. Roleplaying games are not supposed to play themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:36 pm 
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Perhaps 3-5% of total health per day? Seems realistic enough. (dependent of END but probably not in Skyrim from what i hear :| )


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:31 am 
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My biggest fear is that they are cutting so many of the basic elements of what has made previous TES such good RPGs (such as attributes, classes, and birthsigns). I just heard that Repair (and armor/weapon) degradation won't be in Skyrim. If the background mechanics behind these game elements have also been removed, it may be nearly impossible to mod the game into the RPG that I feel it should have been.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:20 am 
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I can understand why they removed attributes, classes and birthsigns. They grasp at the dark and dusty direction called "realistic fantasy game", as it is finally time to balance out those JRPG's with same amount of fantasy with lesser amount of botox and **** surgery.

As in real life you won't modify your attributes by choosing them so it would be logical if you can't modify them in your character. And the TES attributes has too big impact on gameplay. Speed 100 made move like energetic cockroach on coffee. Strength at 100 made you carry stuff like you were a pack quar. Etc.

I real life you won't choose your class when you are born or when something significant happens. You just use skills what you want and develop them from "novice" stage. Class only gives you a scratch of what you have been in the past and it limits you in the future as there may be some skills that you also want to use. In the books and movies the young hero doesn't start with predetermined class and skills (always are there exceptions where the hero is for example seasoned crusader) hero does whatever he/she sees useful. If you are into roleplay then you won't need classes to tell yourself who you are. Good roleplayer just needs skills to develop.

Birthsigns weren't logical from the start. How come I get the bonuses because I was born let's say in the month when sign "The Lady" rules the skies and no one else gets the same bonus although they were born the same time as I was. I for example have always been looking for birthsign system that work like fantasy horoscope - every birthsign gives everyone born that day minor I repeat MINOR bonuses.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:44 pm 
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I am more in the "cheater's circle" when it comes to gaming, and I freely admit it. But game mechanics still have to make sense to me if I am to enjoy cheating! :lol:

Another game that recently came to my attention is RAGE. That game is bearing some remarkable similarities to Skyrim despite being primarily a shooter. Health regen is something they share, as well as the concept of getting the details out of the way so that players can play the game. This philosophy is becoming more prevalent in modern gaming, at least among the AAA titles. I think this style of game development makes more sense for a shooter like RAGE than for an RPG like Skyrim, but hey - game devs need to eat, too. Who am I judge their lives? On the other hand, do the devs owe anything to their fans?

So you make a game, and it has to run on consoles as well as PC. Ok, so right there you have "dumb it down" just because of the interface! Controller vs mouse & keyboard. No matter your camp, you have to admit that mouse & keyboard wins the number of inputs battle. You just cannot fit 30 different keymaps, 3 mouse buttons, and a wheel onto a PS3 or X360 controller. Not gonna happen. So you have to change some things and make some design choices that make non-optimal use of a mouse & keyboard. No fair giving the PC users a distinct advantage, right? Besides, real-time games make 30 different keymaps inpractical for gameplay, anyway. Sure is nice to have more than 8, though! I think the sheer chasm between interfaces drives things like auto-health regen because mapping a health potion and healing spell to those additional two keymaps is just not possible or ideal on a console controller. It is nothing more than "two more" on a keyboard, but consoles are different. Likewise, having to go into the inventory to do it detracts from the PC experience because of the keyboard! "Just put two more keymaps in there! I am not using the 'K' button yet!" So to balance it out, the devs make decisions like auto-health regen and then an additional 1 million units are sold and everyone gets to keep their jobs and be merry.

And yes, it is about money, because game devs have families, too.

I am hoping that the next generation of consoles have mouse & keyboard as an interface option, as well as the ability to run mods, and then everyone will be happier because the games can be more capable on the technical side. That in turn will help with things like auto-health regen. At the very least, you can turn it off and share the mod with all! PITA to dance around the PC vs console issue as a game dev right now. Used to be that the differences were so great you did not have to make games for all of them! But nooooo! People hear about a game now and just expect it to be released on ALL systems so that they can sit on their couch and play the game that they DESERVE and the rest of us do not have to listen to them whine!

I blame Microsoft for this. Mostly because I forgot why I even posted this and they seem like an easy target with their hands in both cookie jars.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 9:15 am 
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[quote="Remos-van-Damme"]I can understand why they removed attributes, classes and birthsigns. They grasp at the dark and dusty direction called "realistic fantasy game", as it is finally time to balance out those JRPG's with same amount of fantasy with lesser amount of botox and **** surgery.

As in real life you won't modify your attributes by choosing them so it would be logical if you can't modify them in your character. And the TES attributes has too big impact on gameplay. Speed 100 made move like energetic cockroach on coffee. Strength at 100 made you carry stuff like you were a pack quar. Etc.

I real life you won't choose your class when you are born or when something significant happens. You just use skills what you want and develop them from "novice" stage. Class only gives you a scratch of what you have been in the past and it limits you in the future as there may be some skills that you also want to use. In the books and movies the young hero doesn't start with predetermined class and skills (always are there exceptions where the hero is for example seasoned crusader) hero does whatever he/she sees useful. If you are into roleplay then you won't need classes to tell yourself who you are. Good roleplayer just needs skills to develop.

Birthsigns weren't logical from the start. How come I get the bonuses because I was born let's say in the month when sign "The Lady" rules the skies and no one else gets the same bonus although they were born the same time as I was. I for example have always been looking for birthsign system that work like fantasy horoscope - every birthsign gives everyone born that day minor I repeat MINOR bonuses.

But in real life we don't all start out the same . . . every person has inherent strengths and weaknesses. And, by removing Classes, Birthsigns, and Attributes, Skyrim leaves that out.

In real life, not every person is naturally gifted in music, or in athletic abilities . . . we all have unique differences, even from a very early age. If you are not athletic, you will never be a professional athlete, no matter how much you practice. Plus, as I'm personally all too aware of, there are birth defects and injuries that can result in disabilities (which each come with their own strengths and weaknesses).

In the beginning of the game, your character is an adult (like 20 years old or more), so they would have 20 years worth of experience . . . presumingly 20 unique years of experience. So they should have some learned skills, along with innate abilities (they should be better than average at some things and worse than average at other things). Todd stated that an average game might last 200 real hours, during which you might level up 50 times (and gain 50 Perks). 200 real hours = 250 game days (based on a 30 Timescale) . . . which is less than 9 months. So my 20-year-old starting character would have no skills, no education, nothing they are good (or bad) at . . . yet during the 9 months of game time that I'm playing the game, they will suddenly be able to excel at any skill that they use. I'm having a LOT of trouble wrapping my brain around that kind of logic.

Classes, Birthsigns, and Attributes in previous TES RPGs, gave us the ability to create our own unique starting character. It is true that in real life we don't get any say in our innate abilities, but one of the coolest parts of a RPG (for me at least) is that I can create the character that I want to play my game with. Removing the player's ability to pick their character's Class, Birthsign, and Attributes takes a LOT of the fun out of a RPG. There is no longer any unique initial character builds . . . other than cosmetic appearance, and some very small Racial differences, your character is basically a clone. Skyrim doesn't even have ANY gender skill differences (something that was present in the previous TES RPGs).
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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:53 am 
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[quote="Arwen"][quote="Remos-van-Damme"]I can understand why they removed attributes, classes and birthsigns. They grasp at the dark and dusty direction called "realistic fantasy game", as it is finally time to balance out those JRPG's with same amount of fantasy with lesser amount of botox and **** surgery.

As in real life you won't modify your attributes by choosing them so it would be logical if you can't modify them in your character. And the TES attributes has too big impact on gameplay. Speed 100 made move like energetic cockroach on coffee. Strength at 100 made you carry stuff like you were a pack quar. Etc.

I real life you won't choose your class when you are born or when something significant happens. You just use skills what you want and develop them from "novice" stage. Class only gives you a scratch of what you have been in the past and it limits you in the future as there may be some skills that you also want to use. In the books and movies the young hero doesn't start with predetermined class and skills (always are there exceptions where the hero is for example seasoned crusader) hero does whatever he/she sees useful. If you are into roleplay then you won't need classes to tell yourself who you are. Good roleplayer just needs skills to develop.

Birthsigns weren't logical from the start. How come I get the bonuses because I was born let's say in the month when sign "The Lady" rules the skies and no one else gets the same bonus although they were born the same time as I was. I for example have always been looking for birthsign system that work like fantasy horoscope - every birthsign gives everyone born that day minor I repeat MINOR bonuses.


But in real life we don't all start out the same . . . every person has inherent strengths and weaknesses. And, by removing Classes, Birthsigns, and Attributes, Skyrim leaves that out.

In real life, not every person is naturally gifted in music, or in athletic abilities . . . we all have unique differences, even from a very early age. If you are not athletic, you will never be a professional athlete, no matter how much you practice. Plus, as I'm personally all too aware of, there are birth defects and injuries that can result in disabilities (which each come with their own strengths and weaknesses).

In the beginning of the game, your character is an adult (like 20 years old or more), so they would have 20 years worth of experience . . . presumingly 20 unique years of experience. So they should have some learned skills, along with innate abilities (they should be better than average at some things and worse than average at other things). Todd stated that an average game might last 200 real hours, during which you might level up 50 times (and gain 50 Perks). 200 real hours = 250 game days (based on a 30 Timescale) . . . which is less than 9 months. So my 20-year-old starting character would have no skills, no education, nothing they are good (or bad) at . . . yet during the 9 months of game time that I'm playing the game, they will suddenly be able to excel at any skill that they use. I'm having a LOT of trouble wrapping my brain around that kind of logic.

Classes, Birthsigns, and Attributes in previous TES RPGs, gave us the ability to create our own unique starting character. It is true that in real life we don't get any say in our innate abilities, but one of the coolest parts of a RPG (for me at least) is that I can create the character that I want to play my game with. Removing the player's ability to pick their character's Class, Birthsign, and Attributes takes a LOT of the fun out of a RPG. There is no longer any unique initial character builds . . . other than cosmetic appearance, and some very small Racial differences, your character is basically a clone. Skyrim doesn't even have ANY gender skill differences (something that was present in the previous TES RPGs).

To determine inherit weaknesses some games have made much better job. In Mount&Blade you answer questions about your earlier life and then your answers make the differences in skills and stuff. And if that determined my starting skill I might even use that. If you like you could *** this to your realism mods ... perhaps.

As for the genetic differences. Skyrim ... for me at least ... pictures a harsh place to live where this "natural choice" was still there. Meaning that those who are genetically too weak won't survive. And in that age doctors weren't the most scientific sort.

The 9 months to god thing I have never liked, but this thing has been in as far as I know from TES III. But about the clone start I like to think like this: "character that I play is tired of his/her previous life and decides to start off from blank sheet. Or one that pops into my head now is something like in the game Amnesia.

Whoa! This quoteception looks like a debate now!
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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 5:49 pm 
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[quote="Remos-van-Damme"]
To determine inherit weaknesses some games have made much better job. In Mount&Blade you answer questions about your earlier life and then your answers make the differences in skills and stuff. And if that determined my starting skill I might even use that. If you like you could *** this to your realism mods ... perhaps.

As for the genetic differences. Skyrim ... for me at least ... pictures a harsh place to live where this "natural choice" was still there. Meaning that those who are genetically too weak won't survive. And in that age doctors weren't the most scientific sort.

The 9 months to god thing I have never liked, but this thing has been in as far as I know from TES III. But about the clone start I like to think like this: "character that I play is tired of his/her previous life and decides to start off from blank sheet. Or one that pops into my head now is something like in the game Amnesia.

Whoa! This quoteception looks like a debate now!


(Considering that automate Emails tell me to come back, I might as well be active for once)
On the Mount and Blade thing, yes the game does that, and it works well, but it still gives you specific skills, which are based on specific attributes. It also gives you a boon in specific attributes, so really it is still like choosing your attributes, but in an indirect and more realistic way. The game never removed attributes, and said attributes exist for a reason.

I do not agree on the removal of attributes in general. There is a reason that they have existed since almost the beginning of RPG's, they are a simple and easy to use way to track a persons strength/Weakness. You can also use them for much more specific things rather then just the HP/mana/stamina combo they are going with now.
Strength can be used to see how strong the character is in plain muscle power, aka how much he can carry or how much force he can use on an object.(swinging of sword or use of bow)

Endurance on the other hand is not the same thing as strength, so combining both and saying 'HP boon equals picking those' is just silly.
At least my view on the whole attribute removal, I don't understand why they did it.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:11 pm 
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Sapare wrote:
(Considering that automate Emails tell me to come back, I might as well be active for once)
On the Mount and Blade thing, yes the game does that, and it works well, but it still gives you specific skills, which are based on specific attributes. It also gives you a boon in specific attributes, so really it is still like choosing your attributes, but in an indirect and more realistic way. The game never removed attributes, and said attributes exist for a reason.

I do not agree on the removal of attributes in general. There is a reason that they have existed since almost the beginning of RPG's, they are a simple and easy to use way to track a persons strength/Weakness. You can also use them for much more specific things rather then just the HP/mana/stamina combo they are going with now.
Strength can be used to see how strong the character is in plain muscle power, aka how much he can carry or how much force he can use on an object.(swinging of sword or use of bow)

Endurance on the other hand is not the same thing as strength, so combining both and saying 'HP boon equals picking those' is just silly.
At least my view on the whole attribute removal, I don't understand why they did it.


Very simple. Weaknesses are bad. Why? They make the game more difficult. Difficulty is a cardinal sin these days in AAA gaming. If a two-year-old can't play it, you screwed up. You can only ever make the game easier nowadays, never harder.

I recently got a major breath of fresh air when my new copy of Forza Motorsport 3 came in, because they did accessibility right. EVERYTHING that alters the difficulty of the game can be toggled. Need help finding brake points? Turn on the line assist. Don't need it anymore? Just turn it off again and you are set. The game is built for BOTH crowds, casual and hardcore, and it works. The game is perfectly willing to hold your hand, but only if you tell it to.

Bethesda is just assuming everyone wants their hands held. This, in turn, is alienating their hardcore followers. There is nothing wrong with providing accessibility options and allowing players to essentially create their own difficulty. Wouldn't that fit in an Elder Scrolls game? Aren't we all about freedom here? I can already think of several things that could be done this way:

Injuries: Allow for sustained injuries to be obtained that negatively affect your character alongside health loss.
Equipment degradation: Weapons and armor gradually wear out over time and need to be repaired.
Stamina loss from encumbrance: Carrying a heavy load reduces your total stamina.
Stamina loss from jogging: You slowly lose stamina while jogging instead of slowly regaining it.
Exhaustion: You collapse to the ground when your stamina reaches zero.
Spell failure: Casting more powerful spells can fail.
Health regeneration: Health slowly regenerates over time, or only if you have more than 75% of your health remaining, or not at all. (three options)

Just a few here. No doubt there is more.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:44 am 
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Thomas Kaira wrote:
Sapare wrote:
(Considering that automate Emails tell me to come back, I might as well be active for once)
On the Mount and Blade thing, yes the game does that, and it works well, but it still gives you specific skills, which are based on specific attributes. It also gives you a boon in specific attributes, so really it is still like choosing your attributes, but in an indirect and more realistic way. The game never removed attributes, and said attributes exist for a reason.

I do not agree on the removal of attributes in general. There is a reason that they have existed since almost the beginning of RPG's, they are a simple and easy to use way to track a persons strength/Weakness. You can also use them for much more specific things rather then just the HP/mana/stamina combo they are going with now.
Strength can be used to see how strong the character is in plain muscle power, aka how much he can carry or how much force he can use on an object.(swinging of sword or use of bow)

Endurance on the other hand is not the same thing as strength, so combining both and saying 'HP boon equals picking those' is just silly.
At least my view on the whole attribute removal, I don't understand why they did it.


Very simple. Weaknesses are bad. Why? They make the game more difficult. Difficulty is a cardinal sin these days in AAA gaming. If a two-year-old can't play it, you screwed up. You can only ever make the game easier nowadays, never harder.

I recently got a major breath of fresh air when my new copy of Forza Motorsport 3 came in, because they did accessibility right. EVERYTHING that alters the difficulty of the game can be toggled. Need help finding brake points? Turn on the line assist. Don't need it anymore? Just turn it off again and you are set. The game is built for BOTH crowds, casual and hardcore, and it works. The game is perfectly willing to hold your hand, but only if you tell it to.

Bethesda is just assuming everyone wants their hands held. This, in turn, is alienating their hardcore followers. There is nothing wrong with providing accessibility options and allowing players to essentially create their own difficulty. Wouldn't that fit in an Elder Scrolls game? Aren't we all about freedom here? I can already think of several things that could be done this way:

Injuries: Allow for sustained injuries to be obtained that negatively affect your character alongside health loss.
Equipment degradation: Weapons and armor gradually wear out over time and need to be repaired.
Stamina loss from encumbrance: Carrying a heavy load reduces your total stamina.
Stamina loss from jogging: You slowly lose stamina while jogging instead of slowly regaining it.
Exhaustion: You collapse to the ground when your stamina reaches zero.
Spell failure: Casting more powerful spells can fail.
Health regeneration: Health slowly regenerates over time, or only if you have more than 75% of your health remaining, or not at all. (three options)

Just a few here. No doubt there is more.


They have to get money somewhere too. And 90% of gamers are casual gamers. Casual gamers are this strange type of gamers who cry for compelling story, but so that they can play it like some sort of Wii sports. They want game developers to shove a great story down to their throat in a few hours of gaming (ex. Call of Duty MW series) and so the majority of consumers (read: casual gamers) are buying only that sort of games. And if other brands want to survive then they have to make it appealing to casual gamers also at least to some extent. And I am sure that in this forum everyone hates this inevitable mainstreaming.

Bethesda is assuming that if they want to continue then they have to go with the demand on market.

But about the junk that Bethesda adds in. I'm am pretty sure that all this b******t will be modded out pretty quickly.

Thomas Kaira you are a little mislead by the difference of stamina and fatigue.

Stamina - if there was a stamina bar then it would show the amount of stuff you can do perfectly on that bar. So that stamina is one part of endurance. Stamina is basically the right end side of the fatigue bar. Ex. The amount of perfect push-ups you can do is your stamina.

Fatigue - the lower the fatigue is the lower you performance is. And this bar perfectly fits the game. The more fatigued you are the more pathetic you are at doing stuff. Ex. When you are too tired to do perfect push-ups then should start fatigue bar because it shows how close you are to collapse.

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:57 pm 
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Don't want to quote the quote of a quote, so I will just normal reply.
90% of consumers are not casual gamers. No offense.
I do not play FPS's much, but Call of Duty MW is not what I would consider casual. In fact, what you are calling out is an E sport, E sports are not casual games. SC2 is not a casual game for example, and it is still an E sport.

Also, the whole idea of 'only casual gamers play these days and you have to target them to win' is totally wrong and Indy companies have proven this.
Super meat Boy,
Mount and Blade,
and I guess I wanna be the guy.(though it is free game, so not a great example) Are rather well known games, at least to some groups, and both Super meat boy and MaB have sold rather well, neither have any hand holding.
In fact, both of the games have found that many fans BECAUSE of the lack of hand holding, people like challenge, people enjoy the feel of being proud of oneself/feeling accomplished.

So yea, so much to that point, so why are they doing this? Because their marketing department is so far gone from this world, they have lost that touch to their actual fans. (At least in this case)
Honestly, you can't argue otherwise if they implement marriage rather then werewolf.


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:23 pm 
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Remos-van-Damme wrote:
Thomas Kaira you are a little mislead by the difference of stamina and fatigue.

Stamina - if there was a stamina bar then it would show the amount of stuff you can do perfectly on that bar. So that stamina is one part of endurance. Stamina is basically the right end side of the fatigue bar. Ex. The amount of perfect push-ups you can do is your stamina.

Fatigue - the lower the fatigue is the lower you performance is. And this bar perfectly fits the game. The more fatigued you are the more pathetic you are at doing stuff. Ex. When you are too tired to do perfect push-ups then should start fatigue bar because it shows how close you are to collapse.


Far from it.

Stamina is Skyrim's re-labeling of Fatigue. They are one and the same.

And this is precisely how Oblivion's fatigue bar worked. The lower it was, the worse you were at performing exertions due to your muscles being tired out. That is stamina. Fatigue is long-term physical tiredness. The more fatigued you are, the less capable your body can function, full stop (until you've rested). Stamina is your ability to physically exert yourself. Fatigue is long-term tiredness associated with those exertions. In short, Stamina is short-term muscle tiredness, and Fatigue is long-term. So how it would REALLY work if both were modeled is this:

The Stamina bar would function as it does, depleting quickly and replendishing as you did things like sprinting or combat. However, every time the bar depletes, it will not recharge all the way, and slowly get lower and lower as you continued to exert yourself. That is fatigue modeling. As your character becomes more fatigued, his ability to physically exert himself becomes more limited, and will continue to decrease until he has rested (at which point the bar would completely refill).

In fact... speaking of mods....


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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:42 am 
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Thomas Kaira wrote:
Remos-van-Damme wrote:
Thomas Kaira you are a little mislead by the difference of stamina and fatigue.

Stamina - if there was a stamina bar then it would show the amount of stuff you can do perfectly on that bar. So that stamina is one part of endurance. Stamina is basically the right end side of the fatigue bar. Ex. The amount of perfect push-ups you can do is your stamina.

Fatigue - the lower the fatigue is the lower you performance is. And this bar perfectly fits the game. The more fatigued you are the more pathetic you are at doing stuff. Ex. When you are too tired to do perfect push-ups then should start fatigue bar because it shows how close you are to collapse.


Far from it.

Stamina is Skyrim's re-labeling of Fatigue. They are one and the same.

And this is precisely how Oblivion's fatigue bar worked. The lower it was, the worse you were at performing exertions due to your muscles being tired out. That is stamina. Fatigue is long-term physical tiredness. The more fatigued you are, the less capable your body can function, full stop (until you've rested). Stamina is your ability to physically exert yourself. Fatigue is long-term tiredness associated with those exertions. In short, Stamina is short-term muscle tiredness, and Fatigue is long-term. So how it would REALLY work if both were modeled is this:

The Stamina bar would function as it does, depleting quickly and replendishing as you did things like sprinting or combat. However, every time the bar depletes, it will not recharge all the way, and slowly get lower and lower as you continued to exert yourself. That is fatigue modeling. As your character becomes more fatigued, his ability to physically exert himself becomes more limited, and will continue to decrease until he has rested (at which point the bar would completely refill).

In fact... speaking of mods....


Very good! Very good!

Great mods start from ideas like that!

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 Post subject: Re: Next Elder Scrolls RPG
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:45 pm 
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If we are talking about the full population of people who play games on a computer/console, then I would agree that 90% of gamers are "casual". At that point, we are not merely talking about the gamers who play MW2 on the consoles - we are also talking about browser-based games on bored.com. I would consider MW2 console players to be a lot more "hard-core" compared to the browser gaming crowd! Most people who play games are casual simply because they play less than 5 hours per week. If you have never spent time at work thinking about your next strategy or move, then you are a casual gamer. That pretty much sums up about 9 out of 10 gamers I ever meet. They play games every now and then when they have the free time to do it. Gaming is not a priority for them.

Would such a casual gamer buy Skyrim? There is a distinct possibility. Why? I have no idea, but I have met casual gamers who bought the likes of Morrowind and Fallout 3. They hardly ever play them, so why they spent $50-60 on them is beyond me, but the fact remains that they did. So I figure if a truly casual gamer can buy Skyrim, then it is a certainty that less hard-core gamers will buy Skyrim. And really, if you are a hard-core MW2 gamer, then you are a hard-core gamer, regardless of the fact that you are less hard-core about a game like Skyrim. So maybe you are in the category of hard-core MW2 gamer with 20+ hours per week and you want to pick up Skyrim for some change of pace every now and then. Well, Bethesda is claiming that the FPS part of Skyrim will actually be like an FPS (contrary to all their previous games, like Fallout 3, which handles shooting like an inebriated walrus) there is a possibility of opening up the game to the shooter crowd. And whether a customer of Skyrim plays 2 hours per week or 30, Bethesda still gets that $60 (or whatever their portion is - I do not know much about the economics of game companies). The game gets sold for the same price either way.

Looking at the FPS genre, we see a huge amount of similarity between what has been standard in shooters for the last two decades and what Skyrim is approaching. RPGs are more about statistics than any other genre, while FPSs are more about skill. The realism in shooters is just starting, whereas the realism in RPGs is wavering. It is far easier for a computer to calculate a straight line than a random chance. Games like MW2 are far beyond their predecessors in terms of what an FPS can be, especially because the technology to process so many variables in real-time simply did not exist 10 years ago. The graphics are better, sure, but what about the realism? Firing mechanics, jammed guns, ricocheting bullets, variable ammo types, destructible environments - these aspects of shooters are only now becoming standard. The basic model for an FPS game is skill.

In terms of Skyrim being an RPG, it is definitely diluted. In terms of Skyrim being an FPS, it is definitely getting better. Skill-based games rely on predictability of game mechanics, and Skyrim certainly looks to be delivering on that aspect, making it a good fantasy-based shooter along the lines of a reborn Hexen. For long-time Bethesda fans, Morrowind seems to be the pinacle, and they just want it over and over again. But from Bethesda's perspective, Morrowind was flawed. It is clear from interviews and other communications that Bethesda considers Morrowind to be much less than what they wanted to create. Bethesda is trying to improve and perfect with every game.

Michelangelo was a sculptor. One of his most famous works is David, and many people consider that to be his best. But Michelangelo sculpted that before the age of thirty! He went on to sculpt many more works that he considered to be better, to be a more perfect representation of his art. Some of his fans stop at David. I have always wondered what he would think of that...


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:08 am 
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I've posted some of my own concerns about the direction that Skyrim appears to be heading on my Skyrim Journal.

And there have been quite a few posts lately by other member who share my concerns, and have concerns of their own. So I decided to merge these posts into their own thread, now that Skyrim's release date is nearing.

I understand that opinions about such things as Mainstreaming can quite personal (and emotional), so PLEASE remember to respect each other. I welcome debate, but let's not get personal. You can disagree with others all you want, but personal attacks are not permitted (attack opposing points, not the individual).

For now I'm lumping all the current posts that include any concerns on Skyrim in this thread, since most (so far) seem to be related mostly to mainstreaming the game.

OK, so what do I mean by "Mainstreaming"? Mainstreaming, as related to games, and specifically to RPGs, are design (developer) decisions that were done primarily to make the RPG more appealing to a greater number of gamers (including "casual" gamers). This is somewhat of a generality (and this is just my own personal opinion), but Mainstreaming is generally a "bad" thing if you are a gamer who prefers in-depth, challenging game play, with consequences for your actions (as in harsh consequences).

Ok, have fun (and be nice). :)

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:30 am 
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I ain't that concerned about Skyrim being mainstreamed by the team. However I am concerned about the Bethesda studios(as any other) put pressure on the team to make the game appealing to other gamers. They(Bethesda Studios) after all are a commercial company.

And so the debate begins ... again.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:08 pm 
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Finished reading the concern page in skyrim journal...

I was really surprised when Todd told that removed the attributes for increases in either health, mana or stamina (which, like you said, are not attributes).
I would still play the game and probably enjoy it very much, but I guess it won't fell like the game I was expecting: a modern FPS RPG.
I've been expecting this game for so long because I wanted an RPG with modern graphics, but that would still be an RPG. Although I'm not a fan of the FF series, I bough the last Final Fantasy for the XBox (FF XIII), because I wanted an RPG with modern graphics and I was was expecting much better then what it really was. Funny thing, the character improvement in that game worked very similar, only three stats could be increased: Strengh, Magic and Health. Also when you finished battles your team would automatically be healed (WTF???). I guess the RPG genre is dying unfortunately =(

The features the mainly concern me are the removal of attributes, the removal of weapons and armour degradation, auto health regeneration and the level scaling...

The removal of classes, for me, has it's "ups and downs". It is a major issue because it does make every skyrim character the same, but I really hated when I made a bad choice and had to use that class for the rest of the game. If I could vote I would vote for classes to stay. I might not be the biggest RPG fan, but I would prefer that they kept it a true RPG.

Level scaling I'm fine with it, but only for main storyline (because in a game like this I could only start doing the main storyline after 48h of gameplay for example, and creatures would be very weak), but, like saphalline already told they should set a minimum level (do I smell a MOD?). Also the rest should have a fixed level.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:03 pm 
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I wonder if Bethesda is planning on opening up more mod functions with Skyrim. There have definitely been improvements from Morrowind to FO3 in terms of the construction set, so maybe Bethesda is thinking that the released game should be simpler and construction set will be more powerful, and then whoever wants a "more hard-core" RPG experience can go the mod route. I mean, for PC players of Bethesda games, adding mods has almost become the default mode of play. What if attributes are actually still in the game behind the scenes, but the release game hides them? What if mod'ing can bend Skyrim to Morrowind standards?

I have been thinking a lot about this lately. I have seen the construction set evolve, and I can do things in a fraction of the time with the FO3/FNV version vs the Morrowind version, so maybe they are really going all out with the Skyrim version.

No idea if this is true, but mods have been such a core aspect of Bethesda games over the years that it makes sense to me for them to create a more mainstream release game and then release a powerful construction set that can do more than merely move mountains!


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:37 pm 
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saphalline wrote:
I wonder if Bethesda is planning on opening up more mod functions with Skyrim. There have definitely been improvements from Morrowind to FO3 in terms of the construction set, so maybe Bethesda is thinking that the released game should be simpler and construction set will be more powerful, and then whoever wants a "more hard-core" RPG experience can go the mod route. I mean, for PC players of Bethesda games, adding mods has almost become the default mode of play. What if attributes are actually still in the game behind the scenes, but the release game hides them? What if mod'ing can bend Skyrim to Morrowind standards?

I have been thinking a lot about this lately. I have seen the construction set evolve, and I can do things in a fraction of the time with the FO3/FNV version vs the Morrowind version, so maybe they are really going all out with the Skyrim version.

No idea if this is true, but mods have been such a core aspect of Bethesda games over the years that it makes sense to me for them to create a more mainstream release game and then release a powerful construction set that can do more than merely move mountains!


They did announced that the construction set would be better now that they are using they're own engine it would be easier for modders to modify the game with the construction set (can't remember where i saw that). But i'm not a modder and i don't know how that may help for modders... And i don't see a simple way to bring the attributes back through modding =S


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:57 am 
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On the surface I am not liking the removal of attributes at all. Here's the thing for me. Todd said something to the effect that the team looked at attributes and felt that the were too indirectly controlling other main stats. i.e. like Int controls the amount of magicka. So they removed the attributes and now have you directly inputting points to the actual stats. But... I only see Health, Magic, and Stamina. Ok those equate to INT, END, and WILL (along with END/Str/AGL). What is going to happen with Speed, Agilty, and Luck? Granted luck wasn't a very valuable stat in Oblivion, but Agility was imho. AGL was factored in to the chance to avoid being 'staggered' by enemy attacks, Damage delivered by bows etc.

Speed factored in how fast character could outrun trolls, wolves, and other fast and annoying creatures. More importantly, it allows a character to move out of the way of melee and ranged attacks and get in a quick attack on a recovering opponent.

I also just read that at level up the pc has 10pts to distribute to health/magicka/stamina. So it appears as a fixed amount!? no longer based on a stat or skill use?

I only hope that most of this will be resolved by Perks, but we will have to see how well it is done.

We also, haven't heard of what the racial bonus/traits will be yet. From the lore we know that Bretons will be magic inclined, and Nords, mellee inclined, but what are th specifics? The racial traits in Oblivion were horribly un-balanced, with Bretons having a large advantage over say an Imperial. I would think that those would be more balanced this time around.

I personally don't mind not having Birthsigns, and I like the new "concept" of not have a class from the get-go. I think your choice of race should be a large factor to start the game, and you become what you want as you progress. Again, with the perks, if you want to be an assassin you can be one, just add sneak/stealth perks... if you want to be an all powerful mage, just add magic based perks etc.. You are not pigeon holed into a class before you step foot in Skyrim.

In terms of character time-line, I don't look at the pc as a skilless infant that starts, and then becomes an all powerful champion in just a few game months. I see the starting pc and an average adult for their race, that become a certain archetype. For example: A Dark elf (Dunmer), begins (in Oblivion) with talent in Destruction/Blade/Marksman. So, you are not an unskilled buffoon. Then from there you develop into what you do in the game. I think it has the potential to be more natural and immersive.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 8:03 am 
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Nemesis200767 wrote:
On the surface I am not liking the removal of attributes at all. Here's the thing for me. Todd said something to the effect that the team looked at attributes and felt that the were too indirectly controlling other main stats. i.e. like Int controls the amount of magicka. So they removed the attributes and now have you directly inputting points to the actual stats. But... I only see Health, Magic, and Stamina. Ok those equate to INT, END, and WILL (along with END/Str/AGL). What is going to happen with Speed, Agilty, and Luck? Granted luck wasn't a very valuable stat in Oblivion, but Agility was imho. AGL was factored in to the chance to avoid being 'staggered' by enemy attacks, Damage delivered by bows etc.

Speed factored in how fast character could outrun trolls, wolves, and other fast and annoying creatures. More importantly, it allows a character to move out of the way of melee and ranged attacks and get in a quick attack on a recovering opponent.

I also just read that at level up the pc has 10pts to distribute to health/magicka/stamina. So it appears as a fixed amount!? no longer based on a stat or skill use?

I only hope that most of this will be resolved by Perks, but we will have to see how well it is done.

We also, haven't heard of what the racial bonus/traits will be yet. From the lore we know that Bretons will be magic inclined, and Nords, mellee inclined, but what are th specifics? The racial traits in Oblivion were horribly un-balanced, with Bretons having a large advantage over say an Imperial. I would think that those would be more balanced this time around.

I personally don't mind not having Birthsigns, and I like the new "concept" of not have a class from the get-go. I think your choice of race should be a large factor to start the game, and you become what you want as you progress. Again, with the perks, if you want to be an assassin you can be one, just add sneak/stealth perks... if you want to be an all powerful mage, just add magic based perks etc.. You are not pigeon holed into a class before you step foot in Skyrim.

In terms of character time-line, I don't look at the pc as a skilless infant that starts, and then becomes an all powerful champion in just a few game months. I see the starting pc and an average adult for their race, that become a certain archetype. For example: A Dark elf (Dunmer), begins (in Oblivion) with talent in Destruction/Blade/Marksman. So, you are not an unskilled buffoon. Then from there you develop into what you do in the game. I think it has the potential to be more natural and immersive.

Mahalo,
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You my good sir said exactly what I have wanted to say from the beginning, unlike you, I have not found enough words.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 1:52 pm 
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I think it really comes down to the fact that mainstreaming means taking out the potential for failure. That may be what Bethesda is trying to do. Disallowing the player from creating a Nord magician - a non-ideal combination - seems to be the goal. If there is a better way to create a character then that means there is also a worse way. Such disadvantages are not desireable for a mainstreamed game.

And perhaps Bethesda sees this as a service to their players - why pay money for a AAA title with an inferior gaming experience when the inferior experience can be easily avoided?

That may be the crux of the issue. By disallowing certain combinations, or by removing negative effects altogether, there really is no way to "fail" in a game in which you should be the "almighty hero" who cannot be defeated. And really, that is what these games are all about. If just any old sod from the countryside could build up levels and skills and defeat the evil plaguing the land, then the bad guys were not worth the creation of the game! It takes a hero to do these things, and a hero you are when you play these games. Therefore, it makes a certain logical sense that your character should be decidedly above average in every way. Your character is the one performing all of these feats, after all. The player is simply controlling the action. I mean, if I were personally a swordsman of heroic proportions, I would be living the rich life right now after being the primary battle consultant for the Lord of the Rings movies! Just as in real life, only a few people have skills of epic proportions; only a few people are above average enough to be considered heroic.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:14 am 
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TiagoPT wrote:
They did announced that the construction set would be better now that they are using they're own engine it would be easier for modders to modify the game with the construction set (can't remember where i saw that). But i'm not a modder and i don't know how that may help for modders... And i don't see a simple way to bring the attributes back through modding =S

It will be extremely difficult, and perhaps not even possible, to "bring the attributes back through modding," if they have been entirely removed. My hope is that they are all still in the game, running in the background, invisibly affecting the PC and the NPCs . . . sort of like fatigue was. If that is the case, there's a LOT that can be done by modders.

If the attributes have been totally removed, then a modder would have to create them from scratch and figure out a way to attach them, not only to the PC, but to all the NPCs in the game. And this would have to be done in a way that also works with the perk bonuses. Balancing Skyrim's game play is going to be a nightmare!

===========================
@Saphalline:
But I don't want my character to be a heroic character, with a bunch of above average skills . . . that is so NOT how I play my games. My characters are more like a female version of Shea, from Terry Brooks' "The Sword of Shannara," with a birthright that allow them to do extraordinary things . . . but with very little control as a last resort.or understanding of these hidden abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:30 pm 
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saphalline wrote:
I think it really comes down to the fact that mainstreaming means taking out the potential for failure. That may be what Bethesda is trying to do. Disallowing the player from creating a Nord magician - a non-ideal combination - seems to be the goal. It takes a hero to do these things, and a hero you are when you play these games. Therefore, it makes a certain logical sense that your character should be decidedly above average in every way. Your character is the one performing all of these feats, after all. The player is simply controlling the action. I mean, if I were personally a swordsman of heroic proportions, I would be living the rich life right now after being the primary battle consultant for the Lord of the Rings movies! Just as in real life, only a few people have skills of epic proportions; only a few people are above average enough to be considered heroic.


There lies my disagreement with the path Bethesda is taking though.

By preventing me from making the fabled Nord Mage, I am being handed artificial blocks to my freedom of choice. They decide that a Nord Mage is a weak character, so I am suddenly prevented from becoming the Nord who wanted to be something other than those around him, in spite of the difficulty he will experience in accomplishing the goal.

It is all well and good to say that all created characters should be mighty heroes, standing head and shoulders above the common folk around him, but too much fantasy literature is based around the opposite, the ordinary man who chooses to take a difficult road, simply because somebody has to do it. Who is to say that the Breton boy has not dreamed of being a mighty Warrior someday, scorning the magic his friends study and turning his back on his parents' wishes for his life.

It becomes simply another game, just a set of numbers to play with, when the designers start telling you what you can and cannot do to this extent.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:54 pm 
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I felt compelled to register and add my two septims. I think if they are going to get rid of attributes and all that, maybe they should model their character development similar to how Ultima Online did it when it first came out. For those not familiar it is a skill based MMO and in when you created your character you were able to pick 3 skills you started out with a little above average where everything else started out lower and you had to work them to get better. Also those skills were linked to attributes(there were only three that tied in to strength, stamina, and magic if i recall correctly) so in order to get better in one area you had to practice a skill related to that attribute(much like in previoues TES games.) Im sure something like this would be a good balance between the power gamer types and the role playing type of gamer for character development. Race could add more to some of these initial skills and take away from others, just making it more dificult to be that Nord Mage but still possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:54 am 
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Xerius wrote:
There lies my disagreement with the path Bethesda is taking though.

By preventing me from making the fabled Nord Mage, I am being handed artificial blocks to my freedom of choice. They decide that a Nord Mage is a weak character, so I am suddenly prevented from becoming the Nord who wanted to be something other than those around him, in spite of the difficulty he will experience in accomplishing the goal.

It is all well and good to say that all created characters should be mighty heroes, standing head and shoulders above the common folk around him, but too much fantasy literature is based around the opposite, the ordinary man who chooses to take a difficult road, simply because somebody has to do it. Who is to say that the Breton boy has not dreamed of being a mighty Warrior someday, scorning the magic his friends study and turning his back on his parents' wishes for his life.

It becomes simply another game, just a set of numbers to play with, when the designers start telling you what you can and cannot do to this extent.

In my opinion though, every race had equal chance of becoming anything they wanted. It was all a matter of juggling the skills correctly.
Only difference was the initial class specific skills. I did make that Nord mage. And wood elf beserker. And ... etc.
The only really big difference in my opinion was how the individual races looked, and possibly how others interacted with them.

Apart from that I do wonder if Skyrim will be a dumped down RPG, but eh time will tell what it really contains, and how much we can mod it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:30 pm 
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Hmm, I understand where everyone here is coming from. I really loved the layout of attributes to skills and whatnot so I'm a little disappointed but at the same type it actually adds to the realism and immersion because you don't have to worry about a "spreadsheet" of attributes and how you are going to develop them to make the ultimate character. Instead it seems like you can just play the game and have your character customization available as you progress.

One thing that I would like is for crappy skills to BE CRAP. I loved how in morrowind when you picked up a long sword at 5 long blade you would hopelessly miss everything you tried to hit. It was a bit strange for my character in Oblivion to be able to pick up a long bow and be an INSTANT EXPERT. That's one of the reasons I love the realism mods hosted by this site.

I don't really think we're being too tightly squeezed. There are always modders that are happy to make the gameplay more difficult for the more hard core RPGers. I think it's awesome that they are making stealth a more viable strategy (my personal favorite).


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:34 am 
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ye i agree somewhat about attributes being removed but, i also see how they werent necessary. i think the skills and perks system still caters for those who wish to individualize your character without having to work out that (eg. intelligence increases alchemy and charisma increases barter and speech and so on)

i see no limitations on how u can create your characters. if i want to make a wizard i use more magic such as, conjuration restoration and destruction. i get better at what i do (like in real life) and i get rewarded with perks in that area ( like i do in real life) instead of I kill everything with an axe then i get to increase my magcial abilities somehow....
in real life i dont practice intelligence, i have it...
i practice guitar, i use my intelligence and i get better at guitar.
so if there was a skill called guitar, i practice guitar i get better at it. not just increase my intelligence coz i have some points spare and then i magically am better at guitar and reading and writing.

i think its just a more realistic and fluent system myself.. im sure many would disagree but im not gonna get too worked up over it. i can still create the characters i want without having to press a button that says "i am i magician" i was born as a magician. i have 6 int 5 char 3 luck, i create my character into a magician, like i create myself into what i am. my skills and perks reflect that

but i really wish repair and weapons and armour degredation wasnt removed..

either way tho if modders can add attributes and degredation back into the game i would get those mods, i just dont necessarily need a spreadsheet to tell me what my character is, i think the skills and perk system could work quite well.

i am glad to see bleeding introduced into skyrim, not too sure how indepth they have taken it but i like the sound of bleeding to death lol..


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:00 am 
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For the record, I've NEVER used a spreadsheet to figure out how to build my character, since I'm more concerned in creating a character that best matches my concept of what she should be like, instead of being able to make a powerful character. The biggest loss in Skyrim's character build (as I view it), is that so much of the ability to create a unique character at the beginning of the game has been totally removed. If you play a Bosmer, other than superficial cosmetic differences, your character is ALWAYS going to start the game with EXACTLY the same skills and inherent abilities. This is a major difference from the previous TES RPGs (and is something that I'm really going to miss). And I don't know if this will even be possible to restore with mods.

The same is true with all the Attributes that were removed. If it is even possible to mod the removed Attributes back in, doing so will likely be extremely difficult.

Even after the latest previews of Skyrim, I'm still convinced that the Perks are more skill bonuses than skill increases. The more I hear about this game, the more disappointed I have become. But I'm still going to buy the game . . . even though I know that it is going to take months of work before I get it modded to what I was hoping the released game would be like. I guess that my TES expectations are way outside that of the average gamer.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:09 pm 
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This perk system actually makes some sense. When you train some of your own skills like running, on the side of just getting a better control over your legs and endurance, you also learn some tricks like when running you learn to breathe deep, slow and in one pace. So why can't a character learn new tricks as the skill progresses.

For me it would be perfect if skills didn't affect damage at all, but the possibilities. And there comes the AI problem. AI should be made smarter not tougher as levels increase. Instead of making NPC at low level shoot arrow at lower damage, they should make it so that the NPC shoots it less accurately. If I were better modder I would at least try to alter Skyrim mechanics to be more like Mount&Blade mechanics so that it would make sense. For me perfect game is what makes sense. Not what is real but what is realistic.

@Arwen: In earlier series other characters also started with similar skills and inherent abilities. But the earlier games just made it easier to get that character. But in Skyrim you have to work on your character from the scratch. That way you can create truly unique character. Classes are not unique. They are always same. But when you work on your preferred style of play then you will get the most unique and perfect character. As you can start developing any skills, you can also ignore any skills you don't like, so no skills are not forced on you (well blade is obviously forced on as there is probably going to be lot of them in game). So why not work on your character from the beginning and develop your character inherent abilities and skills as character gets more prone in the selected style. It seems to me that you don't like new system as you want clear boundaries of what your character can and can't do. The game isn't about creating a character - it's only commodity. It is about experiencing the world and story as you see fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Wow! Lots of activity here since last I posted! I am so shocked, turn page... :P

I really hope the modding abilities of Skyrim live up to expectations because it is clear that, even on this forum, we all have different ideas about how we want to play. Ideally, Bethesda would realize that there are vastly different play styles and build that into the game itself, via menu options or something. Hardcore mode in FNV was a nice attempt but represented only one additional method of playing the game. The difficulty slider in Oblivion was much more useful, IMO. In fact, I made a test mod for FNV that simply increased the hit points of Deathclaws, which significantly altered Deathclaw encounters from a gameplay perspective. I echo the pleadings for better AI in Skyrim, as this would make it easier to change NPC attributes for a quick and simple gameplay mod. Even more amazing would be the ability to apply perks and/or things like "bonus damage" to NPCs. After all, if Skyrim forces perks on the player character on level-ups, why not offer such advantages to enemies as well?

And why are level-ups forced on the player character, anyway? In Fallout 1/2, you could simply escape out of the character screen on level-up. This would ensure that your level would go up, but that your skill points and perks would not be applied to your character until you chose to do so. It was silly, of course, to let skill points and perks stack up for multiple levels without applying them, but this ensured that you were never forced to do anything to your character until you wanted to do it. None of this modern nonsense of "Oh! All your enemies just died like 2ms ago! Here, take this quick survey on character advancement RIGHT NOW before I forget that you leveled-up EVEN THOUGH I AM A COMPUTER AND KEEPING TRACK OF NUMBERS IS WHAT I DO BEST!" WTF!?

Also, I agree with the concept that perks and other level-up additives should provide gameplay options, not direct alterations of things like combat damage. Skills should affect things like combat damage. Perks should not overlap with skills; it makes no sense. For the most part, Oblivion was decent at this, and becoming a Master at skills provided relatively tremendous and superhuman abilities. I do feel, however, that Oblivion suffered from skill advancement that was too compressed. Becoming a Master at a skill was relatively time-consuming, but the rewards were offered too soon, IMO. A Master archer could bypass enemy armor completely while sneaking?? That should have been a 125 or 150 kind of thing, not 100. It also should have had limitations, much like the rock-paper-scissors approach in D&D. I realize that D&D is much too complicated for a game like Skyrim, even were it not going mainstream, and such an approach would truly turn Bethesda games into "spreadsheet mayhem", but such raw power should not be given away at random. For instance, a Master archer sneaking up to a Storm Atronach, which is composed mostly of solid rock, what armor is there to bypass? The swirling vortex of electrical energy? "Oh look, you critically hit one of the rocks inside the Storm Atronach! Great job! Here is an insta-kill for you!" While I do believe that any character type should be able to do well in the game from start to finish, there nevertheless should be instances when sneaking is a useless tactic for a certain dungeon, etc. Weaknesses can be overcome, much as strengths are never a panacea.


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 Post subject: Re: Concerns on Mainstreaming
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:15 pm
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saphalline wrote:
Wow! Lots of activity here since last I posted! I am so shocked, turn page... :P

I really hope the modding abilities of Skyrim live up to expectations because it is clear that, even on this forum, we all have different ideas about how we want to play. Ideally, Bethesda would realize that there are vastly different play styles and build that into the game itself, via menu options or something. Hardcore mode in FNV was a nice attempt but represented only one additional method of playing the game. The difficulty slider in Oblivion was much more useful, IMO. In fact, I made a test mod for FNV that simply increased the hit points of Deathclaws, which significantly altered Deathclaw encounters from a gameplay perspective. I echo the pleadings for better AI in Skyrim, as this would make it easier to change NPC attributes for a quick and simple gameplay mod. Even more amazing would be the ability to apply perks and/or things like "bonus damage" to NPCs. After all, if Skyrim forces perks on the player character on level-ups, why not offer such advantages to enemies as well?

And why are level-ups forced on the player character, anyway? In Fallout 1/2, you could simply escape out of the character screen on level-up. This would ensure that your level would go up, but that your skill points and perks would not be applied to your character until you chose to do so. It was silly, of course, to let skill points and perks stack up for multiple levels without applying them, but this ensured that you were never forced to do anything to your character until you wanted to do it. None of this modern nonsense of "Oh! All your enemies just died like 2ms ago! Here, take this quick survey on character advancement RIGHT NOW before I forget that you leveled-up EVEN THOUGH I AM A COMPUTER AND KEEPING TRACK OF NUMBERS IS WHAT I DO BEST!" WTF!?

Also, I agree with the concept that perks and other level-up additives should provide gameplay options, not direct alterations of things like combat damage. Skills should affect things like combat damage. Perks should not overlap with skills; it makes no sense. For the most part, Oblivion was decent at this, and becoming a Master at skills provided relatively tremendous and superhuman abilities. I do feel, however, that Oblivion suffered from skill advancement that was too compressed. Becoming a Master at a skill was relatively time-consuming, but the rewards were offered too soon, IMO. A Master archer could bypass enemy armor completely while sneaking?? That should have been a 125 or 150 kind of thing, not 100. It also should have had limitations, much like the rock-paper-scissors approach in D&D. I realize that D&D is much too complicated for a game like Skyrim, even were it not going mainstream, and such an approach would truly turn Bethesda games into "spreadsheet mayhem", but such raw power should not be given away at random. For instance, a Master archer sneaking up to a Storm Atronach, which is composed mostly of solid rock, what armor is there to bypass? The swirling vortex of electrical energy? "Oh look, you critically hit one of the rocks inside the Storm Atronach! Great job! Here is an insta-kill for you!" While I do believe that any character type should be able to do well in the game from start to finish, there nevertheless should be instances when sneaking is a useless tactic for a certain dungeon, etc. Weaknesses can be overcome, much as strengths are never a panacea.


Well, it was confirmed that you can save your uhh... skill points? and use them later instead of being forced to add them immediately. So you could go without perks the entire game if you so desired.
There are more variables that could be added to the game (I believe) that would help with realism, including a resistance to critical damage. After all, a creature composed of ethereal energies shouldn't really as impacted by mortal wounds. Damaging the stones of a storm atronach would possibly weaken the flow of energy, but probably not kill it. Locational damage would work wonders in this game... but thats out.


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